hey look what i found

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rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

hey look what i found

this is on scribd and it costs 9 bucks. but this is a find, probably the first flamenco book

http://www.scribd.com/doc/106564450/Juan-de-Grecos-The-Flamenco-Guitar

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2013 17:06:33

frhout

Posts: 453
Joined: Apr. 28 2005
From: France

RE: hey look what i found (in reply to rickm)

I used to have a copy of this but I don't know where I have put it, maybe I have left it in England when I left the country. I couldn't have sold it as there was no internet at that time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2013 17:29:31

flyhere

Posts: 121
Joined: Dec. 17 2012

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 18 2013 3:10:36

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2013 19:21:34

Northern Rock

Posts: 87
Joined: Oct. 12 2008
From: London UK

RE: hey look what i found (in reply to rickm)

For those living in Hertfordshire UK theres a copy of this in our reserve library at New Barnfield Hatfield . Good teaching material for beginners .

_____________________________

"Now Im retired I,ve got my practise time down to 4 hours aday".................Julian Bream

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2013 20:41:29

dformell

Posts: 126
Joined: Nov. 7 2010

RE: hey look what i found (in reply to rickm)

Hi Guys,

I uploaded the book to scribd and posted a direct link in the tab section of the flamenco foro. What prompted me to post the book on the internet was people trying to sell copies on Amazon for $60.00. Anyways if you upload files to scribd you can download the book for free. There is a true internet library called internet archive, one can download media without having to share - just like a real library. When time permits I'm going to upload flamenco books to internet archive and post direct links in the tab section. For the record, Mr. Grecos' book is not the 1st flamenco guitar method - that credit goes to Rafael Marin which I also uploaded to scribd and internet archive. A great project would be to record the lessons from Mr. Greco's book and post the sound files along with the book. Glad to see you guys enjoying Mr. Grecos' most excellent work.

Dan

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 4 2013 8:16:52

flyhere

Posts: 121
Joined: Dec. 17 2012

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 18 2013 3:10:15

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 4 2013 15:14:16

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: hey look what i found (in reply to rickm)

quote:

probably the first flamenco book

I've got this one here by Mariano Cordoba in English/Spanish from 1971

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Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 4 2013 16:58:25

rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

RE: hey look what i found (in reply to rickm)

dformell thanks for putting it up. I was wondering about the copyright as well. I know that if its a certain years old I dont think copyright applies. But if it does I think then scribd whatever has to pay the author something.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 4 2013 17:50:52

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: hey look what i found (in reply to rickm)

quote:

dformell thanks for putting it up. I was wondering about the copyright as well. I know that if its a certain years old I dont think copyright applies. But if it does I think then scribd whatever has to pay the author something.

Copyright law states that the copyright is good for the lifetime of the author plus fifty years. Last I heard of Mariano he was alive and well and in his eighties. I believe Juan Grecos is also still alive, but I'm not sure.

In any case, it doesn't matter. Neither of these two has been dead for fifty years, and therefore they are still protected under copyright law, and are entitled to royalties.

Ramon

_____________________________

Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 4 2013 18:56:02

dformell

Posts: 126
Joined: Nov. 7 2010

RE: hey look what i found (in reply to rickm)

The way scribd gets around copyright laws is files are shared not sold, much like Napster did in the 1990s. Speaking for myself, and probably other people as well, I would have gladly paid for the files I uploaded to scribd but publishers where not reprinting or offering digital downloads. Opportunists where charging ridicules prices as well. We have a medium to share information at the speed of light so why not use it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 4 2013 20:09:15

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: hey look what i found (in reply to dformell)

quote:

The way scribd gets around copyright laws is files are shared not sold, much like Napster did in the 1990s.

Yes, and as I recall after a huge trial that went on for years, the "shared files" defense was rejected by the court, and Napster was found guilty of copyright infringement, and ultimately went bankrupt.

Ramon

_____________________________

Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 4 2013 20:27:30

dformell

Posts: 126
Joined: Nov. 7 2010

RE: hey look what i found (in reply to Ramon Amira)

It's shared files not "shared files", files are actually being shared not sold. The books that I uploaded have been out of print which means the authors weren't receiving any royalties. There's a big difference between copying a book that's in print and one that isn't, in the 1st case the author is clearly being cheated out of royalties, in the 2nd case no one is being screwed. Napster was only around for a couple of years, scribd has been around for six years and the isn't going anywhere. Internet archive started in 1995 and is only getting bigger. The real crimes being committed are: 1. Opportunists charging ridicules prices for out of print books 2. Publishers suffering from the phenomenon of social lag. BTW, the price for a used hard copy of Mr. Grecos' work, on amazon, is now $24.95 instead of the $60.00 - $120.00 that some people were charging. This occurred not long after I uploaded an e-copy to scribd. If anyone feels like I've broken the law call a cop.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2013 10:12:34

Blondie#2

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010

RE: hey look what i found (in reply to dformell)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dformell
It's shared files not "shared files", files are actually being shared not sold. The books that I uploaded have been out of print which means the authors weren't receiving any royalties. There's a big difference between copying a book that's in print and one that isn't,

Umm, no there is isn't, in terms of copyright law. Prominent Critic is entirely correct. The fact the book is not currently in print is irrelevant - making a copy (which includes any website offering a copy for download) is infringing copyright and the publisher of that copy could be sued for royalties for every copy downloaded. If the original publisher decided to bring out a new edition of the book next year, for example, and in the meantime 5000 people have downloaded it for free, that's 5000 sales the author/copyright holder has lost.

Of course the moral argument - whether its OK to distribute stuff that no one get hold of otherwise at the moment - is another matter entirely (and I am not giving an opinion on that) but copyright law is clear.

However, suggesting that the 'real crime' is people selling editions for whatever the market will pay (people who bought those copies legitimately), and using that to justify infringing copyright is a rather confused morality. You seem to think potential consumers of a work have more rights than either the artist who created it, or other consumers who are merely selling it on for what anyone is prepared to pay.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2013 13:43:22

dformell

Posts: 126
Joined: Nov. 7 2010

RE: hey look what i found (in reply to Blondie#2)

Here's where publishers are dropping the ball; Any book can be electronically copied, once the initial work is done the book sells itself without any additional labor. The publisher doesn't even have to do the initial work if they don't want; amazon offers a copying service where they'll digitize a book, sell it from their website and charge a fee for each copy sold. Though we have this wonderful technology publishers are stuck in a time warp, they are clinging on to an old system that - at one time worked well - is now obsolete. Today there is absolutely no reason for a book to be out-of-print.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2013 18:21:59

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: hey look what i found (in reply to dformell)

First, I would like to make it clear that I was not making any moral judgments on anything you (D. Formell) or anyone else has done with respect to uploading copyrighted material. I leave such judgments to God and Foro members.

I merely cited current copyright law, in reply to a previous poster who said something like “if it’s a few years old, then copyright doesn’t apply.”

But certainly the notion that copyright doesn’t matter because the book is out of print is clearly erroneous, as Blondie #2 has well pointed out, with an excellent example of how an author can be deprived of his rightful royalties even though the book is out of print at that time.

_____________________________

Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2013 18:53:51

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: hey look what i found (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Unfortunately Mariano passed away a few months ago. I was honored to attend his memorial, along with many of his former students, friends, and his family. He wrote his books by hand, without the benefit of computers, and always altered the pieces for his students, marking up the books to add variations. I have all of his books, and the idea that they could be free for downloading , with no money going to his wife, makes me sick.

He was an incredible guitarist, and an even better man. I learned to play every single note in every book he wrote, and that was just the beginning. People who download his book will never receive what I did from him. All this free free free, is not the way to go in flamenco IMO.

There are great artists out there, busting their ass to create art and help others learn. Support them please! Take lessons, don't download free stuff that was not free to create. Buy the materials the artists you respect create, and you, and they, will be better off.
Rant over.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic

quote:

dformell thanks for putting it up. I was wondering about the copyright as well. I know that if its a certain years old I dont think copyright applies. But if it does I think then scribd whatever has to pay the author something.

Copyright law states that the copyright is good for the lifetime of the author plus fifty years. Last I heard of Mariano he was alive and well and in his eighties. I believe Juan Grecos is also still alive, but I'm not sure.

In any case, it doesn't matter. Neither of these two has been dead for fifty years, and therefore they are still protected under copyright law, and are entitled to royalties.

Ramon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2013 19:40:42

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: hey look what i found (in reply to Mark2)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

Unfortunately Mariano passed away a few months ago. I was honored to attend his memorial, along with many of his former students, friends, and his family. He wrote his books by hand, without the benefit of computers, and always altered the pieces for his students, marking up the books to add variations. I have all of his books, and the idea that they could be free for downloading , with no money going to his wife, makes me sick.

He was an incredible guitarist, and an even better man. I learned to play every single note in every book he wrote, and that was just the beginning. People who download his book will never receive what I did from him. All this free free free, is not the way to go in flamenco IMO.

There are great artists out there, busting their ass to create art and help others learn. Support them please! Take lessons, don't download free stuff that was not free to create. Buy the materials the artists you respect create, and you, and they, will be better off.
Rant over.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic

quote:

dformell thanks for putting it up. I was wondering about the copyright as well. I know that if its a certain years old I dont think copyright applies. But if it does I think then scribd whatever has to pay the author something.

Copyright law states that the copyright is good for the lifetime of the author plus fifty years. Last I heard of Mariano he was alive and well and in his eighties. I believe Juan Grecos is also still alive, but I'm not sure.

In any case, it doesn't matter. Neither of these two has been dead for fifty years, and therefore they are still protected under copyright law, and are entitled to royalties.

Ramon

Amen. Would be easy to set up a webpage for the widow and offer pdf's for sale of individual sections or pieces. But who will take the time to do it?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2013 1:05:39

flyhere

Posts: 121
Joined: Dec. 17 2012

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 18 2013 3:12:00

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2013 5:36:43

dformell

Posts: 126
Joined: Nov. 7 2010

RE: hey look what i found (in reply to flyhere)

Don't apologize, you weren't rambling at all; I enjoyed reading your post. You are absolutely right, scribd makes the money; my motivation is to help people and share information.

About helping Mariano's widow, I would gladly donate my services to her, I don't need the money as I have a job. Here's an idea, if a few of us from this foro dedicated our time to Mrs. Cordoba the work would be easier and finish much faster. I'm going start a separate thread about this. Thank you for the idea Ricardo.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2013 18:22:05

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: hey look what i found (in reply to rickm)

Mariano's books are on amazon already, and probably available from other sources as well. As far as digital versions, I don't know if they are available. I'm also not sure if that would be a good way to market his books.

What offends me is the idea that his work could be taken without anyone's consent for nothing. I'm not sure getting a few pennies or dollars for digital copies from sites like scribd is a solution.

Clearly, Ricardo, as well as countless others, are not happy with spotify type deals....

I recently bought Juan Carmona's book. It was over 50.00. Was it worth it? One song trancribed was worth 50.00 easy. I doubt that many people are interested in buying his book. Most of the people who could play his music probably don't need the book. Since I have loved the record that is transcribed in the book for a decade, I was happy to pay to see the music in print and work some of it out.

I don't think it would be to his benefit for someone to scan and upload his book so that he could make a dollar a copy or so -it's not going to be a best seller, and the few people who want it need to pay 50.00 for it to be worth it for Carmona to do the book. For those that say 50.00 is too much, then don't buy it. Figure it out by ear, or learn something else. I'm not sure why some feel they are entitled to work that can be digitized, and for free or at a price they are willing to pay......

The person who creates a product has a right to set the price. The public can decide if they want to buy.....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2013 19:45:36

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: hey look what i found (in reply to Mark2)

quote:

I don't think it would be to his benefit for someone to scan and upload his book so that he could make a dollar a copy or so -it's not going to be a best seller, and the few people who want it need to pay 50.00 for it to be worth it for Carmona to do the book. For those that say 50.00 is too much, then don't buy it. Figure it out by ear, or learn something else. I'm not sure why some feel they are entitled to work that can be digitized, and for free or at a price they are willing to pay......

I toyed with the idea of making a printed book of my transcriptions. I know I wouldn't make money on it but I like having books of music around. I do alright by selling individual pieces I have transcribed on guitar pro for about $8-10 for digital version. A book would be cheaper than if people ordered all my transcriptions as digital versions, but more people are inclined to pay less for individual pieces. And surprisingly most only want pdf's instead of the gp5 files I also offer. I am also well aware that people who purchase my stuff are capable of sharing it without my permission. I hope for their sake they don't cuz my voodoo protection is a bitch!!!

The truth is if the Mariano book is offered on Amazon or where ever the copyright is not owned by Mariano but by SAM FOX publishing in NY, and royalties are still paid. Could be that permission could be attained by someone to do more or less what this photo digital download company is doing already, but for a decent fee such that everyone makes appropriate money. Only difference is I recommend to offer partial downloads of the book like i am doing with my stuff.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2013 12:08:06