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RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar
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HemeolaMan
Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago
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 RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Erik van Goch)
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I have had the great privelige of seeing many of the worlds most famous violins in person, open, on the bench, being repaired.
I doubt that anyone would believe that a stradivari or a guarneri violin deserves to be stuffed in a glass case in a museum.
Literally, before my eyes, 4 decades of guarneri violins all open. I got to compare purfling, varnishes, thicknesses, materials and tool work... Only because these instruments were being checked up and tidied to go back out and be played in the world's premier orchestras by the world's foremost absolute ****ing assassins of the violin.
why should a guitar of excrutiatingly limited interest to incredibly few people be stuffed in a box and forgotten in a museum archive.
Do you know what people would say at the art isntitute if they saw this guitar? they'd say "who the **** is ramon montoya? did he write classical gas? malaguena? OH LOOK SUITS OF ARMOR!!! **** YEAH!!"
Bruné is the man to keep this guitar playable, happy and healthy. It will live a long time in his care.
And because it is playable and in prime condition, luthiers can come and study it to try and solve the mysteries of guitar construction. Because they can just call richard up and swing by one of the most densely populated cities in America with the nations largest international airport etc etc..top 3 orchestras, and world's Stradivarius society violin restorer (the only one allowed to restore these historic violins)... anyway, because you can easily swing by chicago and hop a 20 minute train ride that literally lands you 40 feet from Bruné's shop without reservation, special passes, or any **** that would be involved in a museum archive visit at the Louvre, a guitar can be studied by the modest men of lutherie.
Doit, you want inexpensive, handmade, high quality guitars that sound like beasts? then luthiers need to go play and feel and measure and learn instruments from history that still work. They need to capture the essence of these still beating hearts. That takes time and patience. Did I also mention that Bruné is one of the foremost guitar builders on planet earth and that he is respected globally as the authority on guitars??? no? Did you not know that he restores and inspects Torres guitars? Did you know that he has a library of literature on guitars that would knock your socks off? You can come read those things too if you'd like.
I myself have held and experienced a torres guitar in this very shop. In the middle of nowhere, one of the 3 largest cities in the world's most well known countries. Chicago. Google it Mother **** er.
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Date Feb. 14 2013 3:49:46
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Sean
Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada
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RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Erik van Goch)
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It's your definition of preserve, no one agrees with. Locking it away in some dark corner and silencing it forever, is not showing it respect. No one on planet Earth can maintain or preserve this instrument any better then Brune.
If it were in a museum it would sit behind glass with a 2 inch square card stating who made it, and who played it. If you asked the staff about the guitar, they would probably read from the same card you had already read. Brune on the other hand could talk all day about the guitar, its owners, the culture and history surrounding it.
This instrument would seem of little significance to the fat lady dragging her kids through a museum, and just as quickly by the staff working there. The guitar would end up forgotten, left in a leaky basement to die, not as some kind of national treasure.
There is a difference between your intentions, and what the reality would be.
Just my non American opinion.
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Date Feb. 14 2013 19:31:52
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to TANúñez)
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quote:
Is the Spanish guitar today really that different than it was from yesterday?
It seems that it is different but that we retain certain aspects of the old with the new. However, many builders have gone away from the old school and have adopted other or newer techniques for expediency's sake rather than search for tone with a strictly intuitive style without electronic helps.
And the more we get away from the old techniques, the more we have to rely on science to help us, and we lose certain skills for a more personal attachment to our art. And intuitive skill is necessary, as it has certain elements of technique that can't be done any other way.
Michael Cone, a good builder and friend said, I use electronics to balance out the tone but using your techniques along with it, takes me there faster. So there is reason to not let the older skills die out.
For example: I have two guitars coming from Spain with my personal design being built, and yet, the fellow shipping them to me, tried them out yesterday to let me know that both guitars would have to be fine tuned. These guitars are being built with very high quality materials, etc but they still have to be voiced properly.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Feb. 15 2013 13:50:26
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to TANúñez)
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quote:
Tom, I've been meaning to ask you about your reasoning to do this? I ask because you are a reputable builder. When someone buys a Blackshear, they do so because you built it.
Wrong, most players buy a guitar that has the best sound for the money, at least those who are musically savvy. Sound is the most important, as most guitars are playable and finished right. The deciding factor is always going to be articulation and playability for the best price.
This puts most of us builders on the same level with cosmetics but the voicing will decide the purchase on many occasions. If a master factory builder builds the guitar then it will have everything that my own model would have except the tone. In fact, there is a possibility that they would build the guitar better cosmetically.
So, I'll know something tomorrow when the first guitar arrives at my shop.
And the design is proprietary but it is a culmination of 53 years of my building experience, staying with the Spanish tradition. Many builders, before me, have actively participated in this business style, so its nothing new. And at his age, Arcangel Fernandez has done this with his apprentices building his models for many years, and with him fine tuning them.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Feb. 15 2013 15:52:39
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TANúñez
Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS
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RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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quote:
Wrong, most players buy a guitar that has the best sound for the money, at least those who are musically savvy. Sound is the most important, as most guitars are playable and finished right. The deciding factor is always going to be articulation and playability for the best price.
This puts most of us builders on the same level with cosmetics but the voicing will decide the purchase on many occasions. If a master factory builder builds the guitar then it will have everything that my own model would have except the tone. In fact, there is a possibility that they would build the guitar better cosmetically.
So, I'll know something tomorrow when the first guitar arrives at my shop.
And the design is proprietary but it is a culmination of 53 years of my building experience, staying with the Spanish tradition. Many builders, before me, have actively participated in this business style, so its nothing new. And at his age, Arcangel Fernandez has done this with his apprentices building his models for many years, and with him fine tuning them.
True, but are you saying you've never sold a guitar to anyone who has never played your instruments before??? I'm sure you have which tell me some do buy from you based on your reputation as a builder.
Why are you following in the practice? the practice of having someone build your guitar that is?
I know many builders have someone else build them a student model or a lower end model. In my opinion, this is just so someone who can't afford their top model, still be able to buy a guitar that has their name on it. Despite the fact that it wasn't built by them, which I don't understand. I prefer when a top builder, simply just builds a 2a model. Still made by the builder. I'm not saying what your doing is wrong or bad or anything like that. It's your business. I'm just curious as to why you've decided to go this route.
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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
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Date Feb. 15 2013 16:01:03
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to TANúñez)
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quote:
True, but are you saying you've never sold a guitar to anyone who has never played your instruments before??? I'm sure you have which tell me some do buy from you based on your reputation as a builder.
Why are you following in the practice? the practice of having someone build your guitar that is?
I know many builders have someone else build them a student model or a lower end model. In my opinion, this is just so someone who can't afford their top model, still be able to buy a guitar that has their name on it. Despite the fact that it wasn't built by them, which I don't understand. I prefer when a top builder, simply just builds a 2a model. Still made by the builder. I'm not saying what your doing is wrong or bad or anything like that. It's your business. I'm just curious as to why you've decided to go this route.
Most players buy from me sight unseen but the quantity is a problem now, as I don't build fast enough, and for this reason my prices have to go up. So the best way for me to keep the price down is to contract out for a top quality model that I could be proud of, and fine-tune it to my voicing specifications, etc.
My personal guitars are going higher in price, mainly for the reason that the market will bear the price and I will have a better hourly wage. Right now, my hourly wage is about 17 to 20 dollars an hour, hardly much to show after 53 years of my building practice.
And I've already tried to build a 2A model but the quality was too good and Lucio and I had to shelve the idea, as we were still spending too much time with it. Lucio now has his own shop and is doing well. We actually built only 5 models named "Lucio Y Tomas", so these might be a collector model to keep.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Feb. 15 2013 17:48:05
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TANúñez
Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS
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RE: Ramon Montoya's guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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quote:
Most players buy from me sight unseen but the quantity is a problem now, as I don't build fast enough, and for this reason my prices have to go up. So the best way for me to keep the price down is to contract out for a top quality model that I could be proud of, and fine-tune it to my voicing specifications, etc.
My personal guitars are going higher in price, mainly for the reason that the market will bear the price and I will have a better hourly wage. Right now, my hourly wage is about 17 to 20 dollars an hour, hardly much to show after 53 years of my building practice.
And I've already tried to build a 2A model but the quality was too good and Lucio and I had to shelve the idea, as we were still spending too much time with it. Lucio now has his own shop and is doing well. We actually built only 5 models named "Lucio Y Tomas", so these might be a collector model to keep.
Understood. I thought that may be the case but I just thought I'd ask because I don't know any American builders doing this. I'm sure there are. I just don't know any.
I remember those Lucio y Tomas guitars. Lucio has gone on to be quite the builder. I used to offer his guitars many years ago but at the time, I don't think he was as well known so I rarely got any interest in them.
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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
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Date Feb. 15 2013 19:08:52
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