RE: "Luthiers share your creations" thread

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Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

You also lost me at 'synergistic'. I'm a smart guy, but it this sounds like voodoo talk. I call that out.

What I mean by synergistic communication is when two or more braces are balanced and blended together to form near perfect voicing and articulation. This happens with each side of the top's vibration qualities, and blended as a whole.

The braces are worked/polished by hand to produce separation and harmony. This is as traditional as I can explain it.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 5:53:04

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

quote:

It taught me that most of all these left/right hand ideas (and some other ideas) are for narrow minded builders like Mr Blackshear who doesnt have the capacity to accept things, that doesnt work the way they think they should, can actually be very good

Anders, this is the full content of this paragraph that I received in my e-mail. Do you think its wise to keep berating a person whom you disagree with? All I have to say is that the moderator should pay closer attention to your insults, perhaps giving you a final warning about them.

I don't hold to the fact that you are a young builder full of energy and pride, and therefore should be excused for your tirade, and this nonsense is not to anyones liking on this list. Grow up...And will the moderator please help with this uncalled for verbal attack on me.

Why dont you just contact Admin to say that you dont like the weather. I deleted your name from the post because I didnt want bad weather on the foro. I did so some 20 minuts after the original post....

Thats why we can edit our posts. Because sometimes we post things we might regret. That you receive the original post in your Email is your problem. I dont receive anything from foroflamenco in my inbox. If you want to know what i write you have to come here because i edit my posts a lot. (this one has been edited many times)

On internet foros, its considered to be very bad behavior to discuss online what comes into your personal e-mail, so now I will contact Admin and tell that I dont like you because you´re not playing fair. (no I wont. I was just trying to be like you) You´re supposed to discuss your personal mail stuff using mail and here you can discuss what can be read on forum. NOTHING ELSE.

But of course, on the other hand now you have given me a good way of insulting you. Just post something really insulting here and then directly edit the post so that I can look like the innocent lamb.

But now that YOU want bad weather on the foro by posting your personal mail stuff here, I can just say that YES, I consider you to be a narrowminded guitarbuilder that hasnt got the capacity to accept other builders way of doing things. You´ve shown that many times on this foro.

Mr. Blackshear, You could have avoided this post if you had not brought your personal mail stuff on this forum. I decided that I didnt want to be after you and thats why I edited the post, but you decided to be after me and talk about admin warning me etc.... You just throw dirt... And you get it back.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 7:47:38

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

quote:

It was the Rodriguez plan that I think Blackshear drew and that Manuel turned upside down and made everything lighter. Very nice guitars.

You mean he built in mirror image on the solera?

Yes, that was the bracing pattern. Much to much babble with respect of what braces do and dont. I´ve built with a slanted lower harmonic bar. Theory says that this should make the trebles stronger. My peronal experience based on maybe 20 guitars was that it made the bass stroner. I asked some other builders and they had the same experience.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 7:51:46

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

What I mean by synergistic communication is when two or more braces are balanced and blended together to form near perfect voicing and articulation. This happens with each side of the top's vibration qualities, and blended as a whole.

The braces are worked/polished by hand to produce separation and harmony. This is as traditional as I can explain it.

Thats the way it works for you. For others it works in another way. OK. Please accept that there are many very good and some famous builders that work in another way than you do. They/we dont want to work like you.... Its SOOOO simple.
I could totally respect your building if you had the capacity of respecting other builders way of doing things and if you could stop preaching your religion as if it was the only way to God.

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 8:05:54

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

It appears like a misconception to me to point to the directionlessness of vibrations in order to back up how symmetry / layout of bracings wouldn´t matter.

An individual string as impulse trigger after all is putting in on a specific location. And for sound production through an impulse it should not be irrelevant where on the soundboard, in which relation to solid points and greater / smaller surfaces / corpus region the input will be.
Factors determining soundbords response and dampening properties in relation to the triggers location.

Variables varied all the time by percussionists e.g. for sound shaping while chosing where to hit their drums.

If a claim of `vibrations can´t be directed´ is how Mr. Ruck supported his idea then it must have been not entirely thought through.

Masses of a soundboard should be mattering in their relation to a strings certain input location; so it seems to me.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 9:07:59

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Ruphus

One thing is theory another is reality. The two things dont always agree.
I´m not a dogmatic religious or theoretical person, so I´m not going to say that things are one way or another, but practice has made me doubt very much in a lot of the theories and have taught me to trust my senses more than ever.

Besides, a guitar is not a drum.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 11:30:51

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Thats the way it works for you. For others it works in another way. OK. Please accept that there are many very good and some famous builders that work in another way than you do. They/we dont want to work like you.... Its SOOOO simple.
I could totally respect your building if you had the capacity of respecting other builders way of doing things and if you could stop preaching your religion as if it was the only way to God.

Sorry for your pain, man but you have to stop this. I think this is bad for your digestion. I said on my website for years now, that if my fine tuning turns out to be something new it would be just another way to tune guitars.

So, don't get upset about it, as it only causes you to over look the obvious. All I'm doing is sharing what I know, as we all do, so chill out a little.. (a pat on the back and a shoulder rub)....loosen up, man...

Just let it go, it's unhealthy to continue this stuff. And your continued attacks on me don't help the art or those who would prefer to have a nice conversation about guitars.

I could kick myself for stirring up your wrath, in the first place, had I known that it would happen, but what's done is done, so get over it and let's get back to guitar talk.

You have your way and I have mine, .......so why are you building a steel strung guitar? And with the violin, you are already considered a Luthier while I'm just a guitar maker :-)

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 11:47:22

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

If a claim of `vibrations can´t be directed´ is how Mr. Ruck supported his idea then it must have been not entirely thought through.

Masses of a soundboard should be mattering in their relation to a strings certain input location; so it seems to me.

Ruphus, I think Bob proposed his theory as a general term, not definitive, as some would think. Most any guitar maker will know that the fan brace system can alter sound and articulation, Bob Ruck included, so I think his was a general statement, not definitive. Different designs create different sounds and reactions. How is your DeVoe doing?

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 12:09:24

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

...

Besides, a guitar is not a drum.

Anders, if there is a difference in respect of what I referred to, you may please point out to me in how far.

I claim that in the same way of how it matters in which area you knock on a top, the location of braces or unsupported areas to where the string connects must effect.

Likewise with a drum: If you hit on stiffer areas near the rim it will sound differently from other areas near center.

You mean a same principle to not be valid for guitar tops?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

How is your DeVoe doing?

Thanks for asking.

I am since a while now rather using other guitars.
For, the DeVoe clearly emitts some distinguished sonic finesse, but it is too stiff for me ( I prefer flappy tops so to say ) and not ressembling certain properties of timbre that I am craving for ( which shall equal the ones of a very certain Spanish guitar I played for a couple of weeks in the seventies).

His guitars are supposed to adapt to players, but I hadn´t the patience to stick it through while having instruments with softer pulsation in the house.

I may approach it again however sometime in the future.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 13:45:28

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

But if you know how to fine tune steel string X bracing, there is a big audience who would love to get that information.

There are a few steel strung builders who adjust their bracing very similar to my techniques. This is not new to arch top builders or flat top acoustics. But it seems that this method was slow in taking root with classical guitar builders.

Tom Ribbecke, a casual acquaintance of mine, could tell you all about it.

http://www.ribbecke.com/

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 17:18:23

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

I claim that in the same way of how it matters in which area you knock on a top, the location of braces or unsupported areas to where the string connects must effect.

Likewise with a drum: If you hit on stiffer areas near the rim it will sound differently from other areas near center.

You mean a same principle to not be valid for guitar tops?

Yes, where you drive the top from does affect the tone. If the bridge on a guitar were glued an inch above the tail block it would definitely sound different.
The first string and the sixth string are ~60 mm away from each other so theoretically if you reverse the strings on a guitar with an asymmetrical bracing pattern, the top WOULD be driven in a slightly different way when you hit a given string.

But would it be enough to make any detectable difference to the sound? Not likely in my opinion. Remember that guitars sound different enough from day to day just depending on the humidity, condition of your nails, your technique, etc. etc. Everything you do to a guitar theoretically affects the sound, it's just a matter of how much can the human ear pick up. Some maybe more than others

It's the sum of all those little things that give the guitars of a particular maker a distinctive sound even when they are using different designs.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 19:57:56

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Looky here! Shiny stuff. Distractions!

Not that I'm trying to hog space, but posting this to get a move on from tedious personal jabs at others building methods, shall we? This thread works pretty well as a place to show work, bringing your own opinion onto others methods does not seem like the true intent here. If you feel the need to do that, start a thread and fight it out elsewhere M-KAY? Some of you feel entitled to critique others while never actually showing any of your own works......just saying.

This is show and tell, not show and get personally blasted by others.

Back to your regularly scheduled rosette porn

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 20:45:47

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Question...some have said this one is too busy when they see the fragment of it, but when they see the whole thing as a circle it makes more sense.

What do you think? In thirty five sentences or less. Do you see something odd?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 20:58:26

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Not that I'm trying to hog space, but posting this to get a move on from tedious personal jabs at others building methods, shall we? This thread works pretty well as a place to show work, bringing your own opinion onto others methods does not seem like the true intent here. If you feel the need to do that, start a thread and fight it out elsewhere M-KAY? Some of you feel entitled to critique others while never actually showing any of your own works......just saying.

This is show and tell, not show and get personally blasted by others.

Come on man I want this thread to go 20 pages so I can get on Pimientito's list next year. Flame away!! lol

^^^very classy colors on that one, I like... mind sharing what kind of dye you're using?

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 20:59:59

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

What do you think? In thirty five sentences or less. Do you see something odd?

To be honest I like your oud motif better with just concentric multicolored rings in the center.
I like both the oud thing and the arches but together it gets just a little busy. The one in the second to last picture is perfect.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 21:03:02

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

^^^very classy colors on that one, I like... mind sharing what kind of dye you're using?

Clairol, you must get it from your salon. Have your nails done and get a mani-pedi at the same time.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 21:25:37

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

To be honest I like your oud motif better with just concentric multicolored rings in the center.
I like both the oud thing and the arches but together it gets just a little busy.

I'll accept that as long as you don't say it looks like a cheap Persian rug.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 21:27:10

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Versos of the rosettos. The Three Graces. Say good night Gracie.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 21:29:21

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deteresa1

Yes, where you drive the top from does affect the tone. If the bridge on a guitar were glued an inch above the tail block it would definitely sound different.
The first string and the sixth string are ~60 mm away from each other so theoretically if you reverse the strings on a guitar with an asymmetrical bracing pattern, the top WOULD be driven in a slightly different way when you hit a given string.

But would it be enough to make any detectable difference to the sound? Not likely in my opinion.

Seeing your exceptional knack for guitar building, your estimation will likely be matching in this case as well.

What I had in mind is the way waves build up or cancel each other. Assuming that they behave inside of resonating wood similar to sound waves in the air.

From there topological changes like asymetrical turns could be mattering audibly with the shift of enhanced and dampened FQs.

More obviously striking even your pointing to the sum of the little things.

It is weird how even substantial alterations like cracks, golpeadors, soundports, cutaways etc. appear to be efffecting little, while the shaping signature of the builder matters in the first place, despite the fact of the latter consisting of subtleties often so minute that they can hardly be told ( mostly varying anyway with the materials property. - Though not always; see Ramirez´ traditional standard procedure, where the fluctuation appears to rather come with the output quality).

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2013 9:03:28

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

It is weird how even substantial alterations like cracks, golpeadors, soundports, cutaways etc. appear to be efffecting little

I'm so glad you said that. We need to keep track of what really matters.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2013 19:02:28

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

If it wasn´t so, professionally handcrafting makers could have ended up unemployed in the era of *3D-scanner technology in conjunction with CNC, that supplied the community with mass produced Ferrers and Barberos for pocket change.

Good for your trade, so to say, that life seems to have a certain soft spot for romantic circumstances.

Ruphus

* 3D scanners together with latest printers are surpassing my expectations, almost nearing what I would had expected with futures replicating nano tech yet.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2013 20:50:30

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Here's a photo I just received of Juan del Gastor playing my first guitar made with abalone shell in the rosette (2011). (Not the first guitar I made, just the first with abalone....)

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2013 14:45:18

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

This month I completed a guitar for myself. I cut down on my playing the past few months because my hands have been so stiff from building (and tendonitis, tennis elbow, etc.). The guitar I had been playing is one I made in 1998, a negra that is heavier than my current model and also has higher action and wider spacing at the bridge (12 mm instead of 11.5 between string centers). My new guitar is so easy to play that it seems to make up for my hand problems.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2013 14:52:17

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Ah, a peghead blanca with cypress that has knots in it. Thats very flamenco...
Congratulations.
I prefer this rosette. I´m just not into abalone rosettes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2013 15:44:24

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

when they see the whole thing as a circle it makes more sense.

Yes, this is true for me, maybe I prefer it now. I like it very much with either outer ring variation.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 26 2013 15:52:14

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

Juan del Gastor

The picture of Juan De Gastor is the coolest pic I've seen of someone playing guitar.

Cigarette in mouth, playing some notes.

Awesome.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2013 13:27:48

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to tijeretamiel)

I'm glad you like it. I wasn't sure it belonged here. I used to see lots of photos of Sabicas playing with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth. Sorry my old friends still have that habit, though. I actually quit smoking when I was in Morón, when I was 16. It was tough because people were always pressing cigarettes on me.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2013 15:56:22

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

Stephen, I have to ask because I keep wondering: Who is pictured in your Avatar (Is that what you call it)? He looks so familiar, but I can't place him.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2013 15:59:42

ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Stephen, pretty neat the way those tops cast a shadowy crescent moon against the wall

Ethan - very nice looking guitar you've finished for yourself, but more importantly how do you know Juan del Gastor?! Perhaps you've discussed it on the Foro before and I missed it. Is that the guitar you built for Daniel Staffler? That looks like him on the right in your picture.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2013 11:42:30

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Dude i love abalone. I had one guitar with abalone rosette an headstock, but i had to sell it because the action at the bridge was 10m. I never got into the aesthetics of pixels...

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2013 11:57:13