Simplifying falsetas

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HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

Simplifying falsetas

On the thread of creating your own falsetas there's heaps of thoughts on making your own falsetas etc.

but because of my skill levels, I do simplify falsetas that I am learning.
eg deleting a bass note here, making the timing slightly simpler for myself eg making it on or off the beat, and not like 1/4 before the next beat starts.

is it ok? am i 'cheating'?

cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2013 23:07:29

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Simplifying falsetas (in reply to HolyEvil)

That's absolutely necessary. I always do it when learning other composers' stuff.
Sometimes they even use impossible fingerings that you just have to change.

I mainly change rhythmic patterns to make them comprehensible for me. Some years ago I kicked out notes a lot. Once you have the simplified version well practiced you can focus on the details you left out.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2013 23:14:04

FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: Simplifying falsetas (in reply to HolyEvil)

I agree with Bursche.

Sometimes I do the same thing, but just in the ones I really don't have the hands to play. However I think it is very important to always remember how the falseta really is and, as your techinque improves, put back little by little the details you originaly took out from it.

So yes, I think it is ok as long as the Flamenco Bureau of Investigation doesn't find out. If they do... man... your screwed...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2013 23:24:37

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Simplifying falsetas (in reply to HolyEvil)

Sounds like a very sensible approach to me....that's part of what Florian and i call personalizing existing material.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2013 23:46:13

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Simplifying falsetas (in reply to HolyEvil)

This thread is being monitored by an FBI data mining team.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 23 2013 23:50:21

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Simplifying falsetas (in reply to HolyEvil)

Key question is if the FBI data mining team only accepts approved original data or also accepts approved simplified data.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2013 0:03:44

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Simplifying falsetas (in reply to HolyEvil)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HolyEvil

I do simplify falsetas that I am learning.
eg deleting a bass note here, making the timing slightly simpler for myself eg making it on or off the beat, and not like 1/4 before the next beat starts.

cheers

Hi Nice thread.

I think that what you are describing is bang on. Inside every funky modern falseta is a traditional one holding everything together. Like the perspective lines a draughtsman rubs out before colouring. Maybe also like knowing the tradition is essential in order to be modern.

I also sometimes ADD notes to simplify. This means taking out all the gaps by adding extra notes. Kind of turns the section into a little technical study and allows me to use all my 'classical' tricks to help get it under control.

All these things are a good 'in' for working on composition. Just like dismantling a watch or computer just for the challenge of putting it back together can be a real efficient way learning. It is not only challenging it is great fun.

As a teacher I like to encourage this 'roll up your sleeves and dive' in approach in students from day one.

Like give a man a fish and he can feed himself for a day but teach him to fish and lose your monopoly on village fish supplies.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2013 0:09:09

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Simplifying falsetas (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

quote:

ORIGINAL: HolyEvil

I do simplify falsetas that I am learning.
eg deleting a bass note here, making the timing slightly simpler for myself eg making it on or off the beat, and not like 1/4 before the next beat starts.

cheers

Hi Nice thread.

I think that what you are describing is bang on.....

I also sometimes ADD notes to simplify. This means taking out all the gaps by adding extra notes....

As a teacher I like to encourage this 'roll up your sleeves and dive' in approach in students from day one.

Like give a man a fish and he can feed himself for a day but teach him to fish and lose your monopoly on village fish supplies.

That's what i consider my main task as a teacher as well, or like another ones said "i can only teach you how to play the guitar to a certain extent, but i can teach you how to teach yourself" :-)
Thanks for remembering/mentioning the trick of adding notes as well...i like to add that one can also imagine additional notes/beats/phrases in the mind only in order to keep track...both options can help to "guide" notes that are played in between beats or to zoom in on low speeds (i also frequently put my guitar away for a wile to zoom in on a couple of notes in my mind only, co-counting all the (micro)beats on my fingers).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2013 0:40:06

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Simplifying falsetas (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

that's part of what Florian and i call personalizing existing material.

hehe we have an official name for it

for myself ...I call it too hard to do today ...il do it right tomarow

No I am kidding, its absolutely a good idea, simplifying , changing, adding if you like

you often simplify and as you feel more confident with it you go back to it and have a burning desire to ad to it or get it more right

I have conveniently left out many hard things

and some i even revisited years later to pick up...if its a falseta you really like and decide that now you wanna play it exactly as it is

sometimes changing... so many times i loved a melody used in a falseta but the remate as it was didnt fit with the rest of what i was playing or the things i like so i changed it

and also u always get those melodies that go on and on and dont have a clear ending..u have to change to use for dancers or something...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2013 7:58:11

Guest

RE: Simplifying falsetas (in reply to HolyEvil)

Discovered another conundrum to this
I had been working on a SPB falseta in por medio for an up coming performance...open, no capo
After transcribing then working on compas I got news from the singer that the cante will be por arriba with capo on 4...
Only a semitone difference but a whole rethinking of how to play this introduction...
Notes on the first string shifted to the 2nd plus a whole new set of voicings...feels more personalised now with some adjustments..
Still working it through but it has changed
Nice thing here is 2 ways of playing the same melodic material..but added and subtracted things from the recording I originally was working from...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2013 11:33:54

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Simplifying falsetas (in reply to Florian)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

quote:

that's part of what Florian and i call personalizing existing material.

hehe we have an official name for it

for myself ...I call it too hard to do today ...il do it right tomarow

I didn't want to narrow it down to just simplification. Personalizing means doing things your way and that personal version can be equally difficult (or even more difficult) than the original. But quit often it means indeed "i do it right tomarow" :-).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2013 12:08:55

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Simplifying falsetas (in reply to HolyEvil)

i know :-) i am not a great composer ...but i am a great changer

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2013 12:25:17

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Simplifying falsetas (in reply to HolyEvil)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HolyEvil

On the thread of creating your own falsetas there's heaps of thoughts on making your own falsetas etc.

but because of my skill levels, I do simplify falsetas that I am learning.
eg deleting a bass note here, making the timing slightly simpler for myself eg making it on or off the beat, and not like 1/4 before the next beat starts.

is it ok? am i 'cheating'?

cheers

It's totally normal and acceptable....so long as you KNOW you are doing it deliberately. It IS cheating if you think you can't do it the original way....but not necessarily a bad thing. Hopefully you will look back at your own corrections and wonder..."hmmm why did he do it THAT way?", because there just might have been some hidden reason you missed out on. I can only speak for myself and admit that this was most often the case when I am learning and get my hands on video or accurate scores. There will be exceptions of course where the way you change it to as a logical and more flamenco purpose...it really depends on the specifics.

Meanwhile don't feel bad about it so long as your final result is convincing.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2013 18:08:06

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Simplifying falsetas (in reply to Ricardo)

I dont think its cheating at all , all the guitarists do it ,they learn each others falsetas and pass them on .
the thing is that often they change them , maybe a little bit, maybe a lot , to make them their 'own' or in a way that feels better for each player to play it .
then this in turn gets passed on ... after a few people the falseta is very different or maybe you cant hear the original at all .
Its like a musical game of chinese whispers ....

this changing or altering things to suit yourself, is one of the first steps in composition , like a theme with variations .

Question is , did you change it to simplify it in order to play it?, like Holyevil . ,
or maybe you didnt like a bit and decided to change it ?,, or maybe you made a mistake and decided it was cool .?..

all valid reasons
Then did it make it better or worse ?... well that all depends on the listener ... now we are in a bit of 'there is no wrong answer ' area

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2013 20:37:29

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: Simplifying falsetas (in reply to HolyEvil)

I often simplify stuff, especially when I see amazing players struggling to pull something off. Sometimes I wonder why players choose certain fingerings, I normally try to understand their logic and copy them exactly but things like how Tomatito plays this B7 chord stop me in my tracks. (from Alegrias Encuentro) Actually its probably a sensible move from an "A" chord and I may try to nail it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2013 12:35:30

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Simplifying falsetas (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

It IS cheating if you think you can't do it the original way..

I disagree on the term cheating since it has a negative meaning to me. Changing fingering and even notes is not cheating, if you know what you are doing. It is basically a very good thing which also helps you to find your way and play also other stuff,..better. I would rather call it adjusting to personal skills/taste/technical style. Since flamenco is not a discipline where you have to copy everything 100% accurately like in classical guitar playing, I would even recommend to change things (after knowing how the original goes right). 1. Wouldn´t be fun to force oneself to play everything 100% like somebody else... I would feel like a cassette recorder like I used to feel myself playing for stomping in dance schools...over and over ..same patterns...ewww. Also unacceptable to have a passage that you suck at in a complete composition, only because you want to play it 100% accurately. Thats the wrong way...just change it..make it nicer. and 2. Otherwise no evolution... be it an amateur player who changes things or professional player who publishes CDs...doesn´t matter. The variety comes form changing things..going different ways. Copying is good to learn..but leads to nothing without changing up in the long run.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2013 15:01:09