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Morante

 

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Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

cepero elevator music? 


Paco Cepero is probably the greatest acompanist of bulerías of all, one of the great tocaores. Why does he feel the need to play cheesecake solos?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 15:59:41
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Morante) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante



Paco Cepero is probably the greatest acompanist of bulerías of all, one of the great tocaores. Why does he feel the need to play cheesecake solos?



It pretty clear that Cepero is one of the coolest flamencos ever...especially when he was young award winner playing for the best of the best all the time. He ALWAYS loved rumba and sang his heart out por rumba back then and put his heart and soul into that form as much as any other toque. There has always been a prejudice of some aficionados against rumba and I have noticed that the prejudices and the ignorance about how to interpret go hand in hand. That means the folks that hate it also SUCK at playing it. It is really fun and can be just as challenging as any toque depending on what level you are working at. Cepero has lots of light and pretty melodic things even in his buleria or farruca etc. Considering his historial importance I would rather sit back and enjoy ANYTHING the old guy wants to play these days rather than complain. I can always go back and watch him accompany Sordera in Rito y Geografia when I am in the mood for heavy duty cepero. Now a days he's just kicking back and having fun playing because HE CAN.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 16:41:59
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Amen !
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 16:56:35
 
FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Ricardo) 
I'm 100% with Ricardo.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 17:10:56
 
gbv1158

 

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Morante) 
quote:

Why does he feel the need to play cheesecake solos?


what's wrong with that?..... a "piece of cake" once in a wile will not change the life and the reputation of a Maestro.
by the way, my wife makes the best "cheesecake in the world"! :-)....and all the time she makes it, I have to play her "Recuerdo"! ( with classical tremolo :-( ... :-) )

... one of the nice things with music is that you can fooll around with it! :-)

ciao, :-)
giambattista
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 17:11:52
 
XXX

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RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
It is really fun and can be just as challenging as any toque depending on what level you are working at.


The keyword here is "can". Yes rumbas can be challenging, but im sure you would say that THIS piece is NOT as challenging or at a high level in terms of composition as any other piece, which is i think the core of what Morante was saying (i would agree with him).

quote:

Why does he feel the need to play cheesecake solos?


Because "cheesecake solos" are not exclusive to non-flamencos.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 17:18:00
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to FredGuitarraOle) 
quote:

I'm 100% with Ricardo.


Ditto! Paco Cepero has always been one of my favorites, right up there with Sabicas and Nino Ricardo. Whether he is accompanying a young Camaron around 1969 in those Youtube videos or Santiago Donday in his CD "Morrongo," or playing his heart out on rumbas, he is a master. Cepero has earned the right to play anything he wants.

Cheers,

Bill

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 17:21:00
 
Ricardo

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RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
It is really fun and can be just as challenging as any toque depending on what level you are working at.


The keyword here is "can". Yes rumbas can be challenging, but im sure you would say that THIS piece is NOT as challenging or at a high level in terms of composition as any other piece, which is i think the core of what Morante was saying (i would agree with him).

quote:

Why does he feel the need to play cheesecake solos?


Because "cheesecake solos" are not exclusive to non-flamencos.



Compositional complexity need not relate to mastery of interpretation. As easy as you seem to think it is I am 100% you and most other's can't play it as well as him because he is just too advanced as a player. Even as an old guy, older than PDL, his picados rip through like a razor sharp ginsu. His rasguados blast your face off. I don't care if he strip the song down to the basic Am-G-F-E ending only, he still is way above the level of even most modern players. You not going to hear picados and rasgueado like those in any elevator I promise.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 17:32:02
 
Don Dionisio

 

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Morante) 
Ole, I love "his rasgueados blast your face off" ! Ricardo is one
of my favorite rumberos.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 18:04:57
 
XXX

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RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Wasnt it you who said that the problem with those fakemencos wouldnt be the technique but the lack of knowledge of cante? Nobody questioned ceperos technique or bashed rumba as a form either. I can accept that a player whom i consider great can compose a piece that is less than overwhelming. A smart person can say something stupid, it all has happened and its not a big deal.
Modern players, while were at it, not only have developed further techniquewise, but can also imrpove existing compositions by adding their own improvisations to it:


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 18:43:43
 
shaun

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From: Edmonton, Canada

RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Morante) 
Cheesecake is delicious and so is Cepero's playing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 18:55:26
 
Doitsujin

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RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Morante) 
played that so often in bars. love it :) good old days.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 19:37:12
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14801
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From: Washington DC

RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

Wasnt it you who said that the problem with those fakemencos wouldnt be the technique but the lack of knowledge of cante?


Not sure that was me because most fakemencos play what they THINK is rumba and the reason it really isn't is because they don't have the technique to do the basic strumming correctly. The smart guy saying something stupid is also not a great analogy cuz what we have here would be more like a smart and articulate guy stating something quite simple with words a child knows. The words themselves don't make the meaning any less profound. Furthermore the "overwhelming" composition is more a matter of taste. I prefer well executed simple music than mediocre complexity for the sake of complexity. I take entre dos aguas by Paco any day (or the hot shots in the vid you posted) over certain un named modern player's high tech buleria. Throw Cepero here on that pile if you want. It's just taste I guess. I know cheesy fakemenco elevator guitar instrumental material as well as anybody and Cepero is in a different category right from the first note.

The general implications here are that Cepero has of late dumbed down his arte. He loved doing rumbas equally at the height of his career:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 19:50:12
 
Elie

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RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Morante) 
very enjoyable indeed.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 19:58:11
 
NormanKliman

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RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Morante) 
quote:

Paco Cepero is probably the greatest acompanist of bulerías of all, one of the great tocaores. Why does he feel the need to play cheesecake solos?

quote:

Cheesecake is delicious and so is Cepero's playing.




I agree that he's one of the great tocaores (accompanist+guitarist) but I don't understand or agree with the rest of the OP and think it might get a better response if reworded. He records a track or two of "more popular" music on each album. Why is that bad?

A better question might be "Why doesn't he record real cante (por derecho) with singers anymore?" His answer to that about a year ago was that younger singers didn't inspire him because they were all trying to copy somebody else.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 20:15:16
 
bursche

Posts: 1182
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From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to NormanKliman) 
quote:

didn't inspire him because they were all trying to copy somebody else.


Who's there to beat guys like Lebrijano...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 20:30:12
 
NormanKliman

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RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to bursche) 
quote:

Who's there to beat guys like Lebrijano...


I was thinking more of La Perla, Borrico, Camarón, Rancapino, Pansequito, Juan Villar... All of them were copying other singers.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 20:45:39
 
bursche

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From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to NormanKliman) 
Everybody copied somebody...But Cepero might be missing characters like those guys

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 21:12:55
 
Morante

 

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RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to NormanKliman) 
Olé mi arma, what a great thread.

I love Cepero´s playing, though curiously I only know him personally through the corrida ( he has an abono en barrera sombra, being rich, and I have an abono in contrabarrera sol, being poor, though we have friends in common). He became rich by his compositions of popular music, which made the popular careers of great artists such as La Susi and Chiquetete.

However his work with El Lebrijano really inspired my interest in flamenco: how anyone can improvise de esa manera por bulería buffles me
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 21:49:42
 
bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Morante) 
quote:


However his work with El Lebrijano really inspired my interest in flamenco: how anyone can improvise de esa manera por bulería buffles me


It's bieeeeeeh!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 22:11:39
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Morante) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Olé mi arma, what a great thread.

I love Cepero´s playing, though curiously I only know him personally through the corrida ( he has an abono en barrera sombra, being rich, and I have an abono in contrabarrera sol, being poor, though we have friends in common). He became rich by his compositions of popular music, which made the popular careers of great artists such as La Susi and Chiquetete.

However his work with El Lebrijano really inspired my interest in flamenco: how anyone can improvise de esa manera por bulería buffles me




If you guys never heard it there is a live disc recorded in germany 1969... camaron maria vargas lebrijano....PDL plays guajiras and panaderos and the rest of the guitar is cepero including some rumbas he sings. THe buleria Maria sings is Perla style but as a singular performance of flamenco between the two, I never heard better and every flamenco I meet and share that track with tends to agree. THe best guitar for cante ever. Probably one of the best all round flamenco discs ever... interms of baile, cante and guitar solo all wrapped up into one concert. Great fidelity too.

Of course those days are gone guys. I can't imagine after being in the thick of it all how Cepero feels these days. So let the guy do some rumbas for cryin out loud.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2013 22:14:11
 
FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 898
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From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Ricardo, how the hell do you find these recordings?! You seem to have listened to every flamenco recording on Earth!

Just to be sure, is this the one you are talking about:
http://www.todocoleccion.net/camaron-isla-paco-cepero-paco-lucia-lebrijano-maria-vargas-lp-sello-edigsa-ano-1969~x19968913

Also, are there by any chance any of the tracks from this recording on youtube? Can't find anything...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2013 2:05:23
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to FredGuitarraOle) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: FredGuitarraOle

Ricardo, how the hell do you find these recordings?! You seem to have listened to every flamenco recording on Earth!

Just to be sure, is this the one you are talking about:
http://www.todocoleccion.net/camaron-isla-paco-cepero-paco-lucia-lebrijano-maria-vargas-lp-sello-edigsa-ano-1969~x19968913

Also, are there by any chance any of the tracks from this recording on youtube? Can't find anything...


Yep that's it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2013 6:52:09
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Morante) 
quote:

cepero elevator music?


To me this is elevator music. I have no problems with that but its to cheasy for my taste and its not more flamenco to me than Otmar Liebert. And no, I have no problems with rumbas and Cepero is the guitarist on many of my favorite albums.

The whole thing is quite obvoius to me. Cepera has worked mostly with pop music and artists like La Susi and Chiquetete are pop artist or what is called ´musica cateta´ in Spanish. So it doesnt surprise me that Cepero has this taste.

When it comes to Rumbas, I prefer the real thing and what is important to me is the singing. Rumbas without singing is just like watered out food:


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2013 11:38:17
 
XXX

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RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

I prefer well executed simple music than mediocre complexity for the sake of complexity


I neither enjoy simplicity nor complexity in music for the sake of simplicity or complexity. It is always the musical/emotional idea that is enjoyed, thats the content. Complexity is just its form, maybe you could say it is just the tool to express a certain musical idea (im not sure). I think when someone says "cheesy" he doesnt mean the simplicity but that he doesnt like the musical idea which is transported by a piece.

I also dont get some of the high tech bulerias, but i will give those players who play such styles the benefit of doubt because they put in some time to get there and i did not. They can play the traditional stuff as traditional as it gets AND they have developed the style further. In this case i dont see modern as a totally different version of flamenco but as a development of traditional flamenco. Cepero has his well deserved place in flamenco guitar and one or two cheesy rumbas wont change that (well executed but still cheesy in content). You dont need to defend him IMO because his work was never in question. Again its not cruel to take the enjoyable bits of work of an artists and discard the rest.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2013 12:40:31
 
orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

Probably one of the best all round flamenco discs ever...


Thank you for the recommendation.

It's available at amazon as "Festival Flamenco Gitano 1 Live" (not "Gran festival flamenco")


1. Rumba. Cuadro.- 2. Alegrías. Canta :El Tropicano. Baila Charo Cortez.- 3. Guajiras. Guitarra: Paco de Lucía.- 4. Tientos. Canta: El Lebrijano. Guitarra: Paco Cepero. Baila Charo Cortéz.- 5. Rumba. Cuadro. r) 1. Fandangos. Canta: María Vargas. Guitarra: Paco Cepero.- 2. Rumba. Cuadro.- 3. Fandangos. Canta: El Camarón de la Isla. Guitarra Paco Cepero. 4. Bulerías. Canta: María Vargas. Guitarra: Paco Cepero.- 5. Panaderos Flamencos. Guitarra: Paco de Lucía.- 6. Rumba. Cuadro
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2013 14:25:12
 
Morante

 

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RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
Hola Anders

Chiquete and La Susi were/are great flamenco singers. Cepero made milliones writing popular songs (or música cateta) and provided the tunes which launched the careers of Chiqetete, Susi and others.

This is the paradox: one of the greatest flamenco guitarists of all time, who enriched flamenco with his incredible toque, also empoverished flamenco by turning great cantaores into mediocre (but rich) cantantes.

I suppose that money rules, como siempre.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2013 15:43:34
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Morante) 
quote:

Hola Anders

Chiquete and La Susi were/are great flamenco singers. Cepero made milliones writing popular songs (or música cateta) and provided the tunes which launched the careers of Chiqetete, Susi and others.

This is the paradox: one of the greatest flamenco guitarists of all time, who enriched flamenco with his incredible toque, also empoverished flamenco by turning great cantaores into mediocre (but rich) cantantes.

I suppose that money rules, como siempre.


I´ve never heard La Susi sing flamenco, but Chiqetete I´ve heard. And I agree that he sings flamenco very well.
Before them we had Valderrama and Caracol etc.

You forgot one thing. Cepero not only made these singers rich, he also got rich himself.
As I wrote before, I dont care about that. There has to be music for the catetos as well and my neighbour sings along loudly while she cleans the car.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2013 16:07:07
 
Morante

 

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RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
I remember hearing La Susi singing seguiriyas, with the amazing guitar of her brother Joaquín, to accompany the baile of Manuela Carrasco. A moment never to be forgotten.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2013 16:20:40
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
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From: .fr

RE: cepero elevator music? (in reply to Morante) 
@8'54 lead vocal and duet with chessy F# tune




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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2013 18:13:05
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