older Conde, Reyes, etc PRICING

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turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

older Conde, Reyes, etc PRICING

Hey guys - does anyone know why certain sellers (La Sonanta, GSI, Dan Zeff, etc) have many different Condes, Reyes, Gerundino, etc etc at many different prices that share the same basic age?

For example, Dan had a 1993 Gravina Conde for $6500 and a 1994 Gravina going for $5000? Is this basically a way of saying one sounds better than another?
Can you trust that if you're contemplating 2 guitars and one is way more expensive than the other, it will have properties related to that increase in cost?

Unanimous consensus seems that La Sonanta and Dan Zeff are good guys. Is this pricing their way of basically saying that one sounds "better" than the other? Is it basically an honest appraisal of what they're selling?

This isn't a dis. And please don't make this a crazy Conde thread. ;)
It could be a Reyes thread. (But those guitars are always priced as "Inquire")

It's kinda crazy though. It'd be like going to a Ford lot and seeing three '68 Mustangs, all similar, varying widely in price..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 3:59:47

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: older Conde, Reyes, etc PRICING (in reply to turnermoran)

Well pricing always is a matter of demand...nothing new here. But for the seller of a guitar that means it has a lot to do with patience and expected value. The market for flamencas is small and you have to wait for a long time sometimes to find enough people interested in your guitar. Their offers will vary a lot and if you are urged to sell quickly you might juss miss the guy who would have paid you 50% more than your actual buyer.
As a buyer you can make a decision based on sound, playability, workmanship etc... You will usually have the expected value in mind in case you want to sell later. Again you will try to estimate what others are willing to pay for the instrument.
If you think about buying a guitar like this you might want to ask someone who has had a lot of them how much he'd be willing to pay.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 9:56:39

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: older Conde, Reyes, etc PRICING (in reply to turnermoran)

In the end these guitars don't have prices. Just the average prices which people pay for average condition ones. Sometimes you can find almost identical guitar for sale for one third of the others price.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 13:22:11

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: older Conde, Reyes, etc PRICING (in reply to turnermoran)

In the case of Zeff, he is most often helping someone ELSE sell their guitar. The pricing reflects both a fair appraisal as you say plus what the seller is hoping to get for it. I like he keeps his final sale prices up as it's important to understand how used guitar market works. Some folks had been trying to get 10-12k for used conde for example only some few years back which I felt was unrealistic after some investigation. THe "inquire" often is a courtesy to the seller, but in general for prices over 10K. Used guitars will always be in different types of condition...it's not the same as mileage on a car.

In conclusion I would not be afraid to make counter offers with anybody...so long as you are respectful and with in reason. Don't say "6K for a conde? Ill give you 3k for it", that's insulting.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 14:31:09

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: older Conde, Reyes, etc PRICING (in reply to turnermoran)

Best to ask Dan, but I guess the example you quote is to do with condition., set up, playability etc. They are not always constant productions and with Conde, it's a generic make produced in various locations and therefore, standards differ.
Gerundino is almost reverse logic, older guitars, ones that are more beaten up through use, are more valuable (late 60's to late 80's) whilst newer guitars in pristine condition up to around 1998, could be 100% authentic but probably not and are therefore, less valuable.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 14:41:30

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: older Conde, Reyes, etc PRICING (in reply to Ricardo)

What would you guys say then about Zeff having 2 Condes of the exact same spec:
Blanca
Identical rosette
Same scale
Same condition
Same label (Felipe)
Same year

Basically, the same guitar (though we all know that's impossible)

One is $4800, the other $7500

I think 3 things could explain:
Sold in different times when market conditions were different
Consigned by sellers with different agendas or different acquisition costs
Wildly different sounds of these guitars - one is amazing, the other a dud

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 15:49:57

Xavi

Posts: 68
Joined: Jul. 10 2012

RE: older Conde, Reyes, etc PRICING (in reply to turnermoran)

One guitarist's amazing is another guitarist's dud :)

In general, however, many of these guitars are on consignment. Often it depends on how motivated the seller is.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 16:11:53

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: older Conde, Reyes, etc PRICING (in reply to Xavi)

I find it hard to believe that Dan would not control that aspect of things somewhat. How could you possibly run a business where outside people force you to sell two identical guitars at wildly different prices when you the store owner are the expert and the person that has to speak on behalf of of the guitars quality.

I have consigned guitars before and the store owner is always pressuring to make your price reasonable so that the guitar does not sit around in his shop forever.

So I guess that's the frustrating aspect about Condes and other 'big name' guitars:

You can charge crazy prices.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 16:27:03

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006

RE: older Conde, Reyes, etc PRICING (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

For example, Dan had a 1993 Gravina Conde for $6500 and a 1994 Gravina going for $5000? Is this basically a way of saying one sounds better than another?
Can you trust that if you're contemplating 2 guitars and one is way more expensive than the other, it will have properties related to that increase in cost?

You are asking a very good question but unfortunately there is no one answer. Based on my experience and conversation with Dan Zeff, GSI and other dealers, the price of the guitar is affected by so many factors, mainly:

1) Quality and Condition: Believe it or not, a lot of buyers pay attention to the condition of the instrument they are investing in.
2) Year it was made: Jim brought up a great example for Gerundino guitars. Rumors for older ones being the real ones vs. the >90s being the fake ones, who knows but, plays a role
3) Whether the maker is still alive or dead: Reyes Senior guitar would probably go up in prices once the father stops making the guitars. Simply, Supply and Demand. For Condes, just my opinion, I value the pre 96s much more than the later ones. Quality wise I think they are better. Again, just my opinion.
4) Availability: Try to find <80s Gerundino or Faustino Condes today....It is very hard.

Also, keep in mind that Dan Zeff does not update his website to adjust old inventory. It could very well be that the condes you saw were sold at very different times, so you are not comparing similar guitars at the same time. There were times where people paid $13K for excellent Reyes, try to find one at that price today....

Just some thoughts,

TK

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TK
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tsolakk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 17:28:27

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: older Conde, Reyes, etc PRICING (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran

What would you guys say then about Zeff having 2 Condes of the exact same spec:
Blanca
Identical rosette
Same scale
Same condition
Same label (Felipe)
Same year

Basically, the same guitar (though we all know that's impossible)

One is $4800, the other $7500

I think 3 things could explain:
Sold in different times when market conditions were different
Consigned by sellers with different agendas or different acquisition costs
Wildly different sounds of these guitars - one is amazing, the other a dud

Well, I bought a 97 conde for $4500...I would not ever let her go for less than 7,000 now. THat's me. Make sense now?

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 20:32:04

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: older Conde, Reyes, etc PRICING (in reply to Ricardo)

I'm already regretting writing this, but there are 3 Condes in question at the moment that I am curious about (more for info, probably not a buy w/out seeing first hand):
a '96 Felipe that sold sometime ago (no clue when) for $4800
a '96 Felipe for sale for $7500
a '98 Atocha for sale for $5500

..and the kicker:

all 3 have the same rosette, tie block and 660 scale as a friend's RSC from a similar era, all in Excellent to Near Mint cond.

Ugg..let's not revisit the content found in the 7 page Conde thread (that I just re-read for some perspective..)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 20:42:18

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: older Conde, Reyes, etc PRICING (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran

I'm already regretting writing this, but there are 3 Condes in question at the moment that I am curious about (more for info, probably not a buy w/out seeing first hand):
a '96 Felipe that sold sometime ago (no clue when) for $4800
a '96 Felipe for sale for $7500
a '98 Atocha for sale for $5500

..and the kicker:

all 3 have the same rosette, tie block and 660 scale as a friend's RSC from a similar era, all in Excellent to Near Mint cond.

Ugg..let's not revisit the content found in the 7 page Conde thread (that I just re-read for some perspective..)

Ok look man....there are not then infact two condes for the same price. For sure if there were they would be a little closer but again it depends on the owner and what they are willing to win or lose on resale. Sounds like the guitar you want is simply $7500 and you got no ways around that. You can offer less if you want and see what they say. I just told you what I would sell MINE for (and its not for sale anyway). If you want to wait and see I guarantee there will be other condes available in the future but no guarantee on price. Hope that makes sense man. Should have bought the one going for 4.5K several years ago. Too late now.

Meanwhile there are plenty of luthier guitars of high quality that everyone has been blasting folks in the face about for YEARS now. Don't agree that every luthier should keep bad mouthing conde just because so many people want one and the prices have driven WAY up....but simple truth is you CAN get a good guitar for what Conde USED to sell for.

I will say my sanchis 1F and other guitars that appear very similar to Conde are NOT the same guitar. The atocha guitar YES that is pretty much just like Sanchis and you can find the name stamped on the soundboard sometimes.

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www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 20:49:19

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: older Conde, Reyes, etc PRICING (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Ok look man....there are not then infact two condes for the same price

sorry..maybe I mistyped back in the thread somewhere. I did not mean to say the prices were similar.
The prices are various, but the guitars are similar. (based on spec, label, etc)

It sounds like it's simply a consignment situation, with sellers wanting various amounts, and to know anything for sure, I'd have to play them in person.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 20:55:11

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: older Conde, Reyes, etc PRICING (in reply to turnermoran)

Ah..correction:

I see your point Ricardo - that I'm comparing 2 Felipe's, but one's for sale now, and the other sold some time ago.

Didn't mean to say I was using the sold one as a comparison - just a footnote.. that adds up to conjecture about when it was sold, and whether or not it was sold way back when, or if it was just a lackluster instrument..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 21:26:58

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: older Conde, Reyes, etc PRICING (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran

quote:

Ok look man....there are not then infact two condes for the same price

sorry..maybe I mistyped back in the thread somewhere. I did not mean to say the prices were similar.
The prices are various, but the guitars are similar. (based on spec, label, etc)

It sounds like it's simply a consignment situation, with sellers wanting various amounts, and to know anything for sure, I'd have to play them in person.

I think we have to play it unless we can trust the seller.
I played a early 80s conde, that was priced at 14500 locally, about 2 months back, and it was a freaking dud. If it was given to me, I'll sell it for some cash or exchange it. I spoke to a friend about it about 2 weeks after that incident, and supprisingly he tried it too and he also said it was a super dead guitar.
I spoke to a local luthier and by chance, that guitar came up and he mentioned that another great australian player also found that it was a dud.

I really think to buy a guitar unseen, it's better to buy from a non spanish maker with a good reputation.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 21:26:58

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: older Conde, Reyes, etc PRICING (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran

quote:

Ok look man....there are not then infact two condes for the same price

sorry..maybe I mistyped back in the thread somewhere. I did not mean to say the prices were similar.
The prices are various, but the guitars are similar. (based on spec, label, etc)

It sounds like it's simply a consignment situation, with sellers wanting various amounts, and to know anything for sure, I'd have to play them in person.

Yeah sorry about my wording "two similar condes FOR SALE NOW at different prices" was what I meant. The date sold is a major issue and I am glad Dan keeps prices up as reference so you can see how quick market moves and changes. Gerundino for example used to go for 10 K and came down several thousand after the guy died....where as many other makes shot way up such as conde or reyes.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 21:33:10