Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: Flamenco Playing and Practice Time
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
johnnefastis
Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
|
 RE: Flamenco Playing and Practice Time (in reply to FlamencoD)
|
|
|
Hi
I have been really enjoying this thread, thank for sharing your thoughts.
I am sure this sort of list is written better somewhere else, and I am not a great player but this is how my time might get broken down. I always try practice to a metronome, and concentrate on good sound. I think I am getting better at the right pace but I am always looking for new ideas.
Roughly in order of priority.
1. Compas internalisation repeating compas variations.
2. Repetitive exercises to strengthen and develop speed in righthand muscles, endless rasgueos, picado runs etc
3. Fingerboard learning , scales, scale variations and chord sequences etc
4. Learning falsettas
5. Finger independence, Left hand (chromatic, spider type exercise) Right hand (emphasising certain fingers during exercises)
6. Speed exercises, short notes followed by speed bursts.
7. Learning pieces
8. Meditative Isolated movements as described by Erik
And of course listening and watching flamenco.
Ultimately I would like to play comfortably in compas in all the main palos and be able to improvise with dancers and singers so learning a solo repertoire is not so important for me now. I like exercises like scales and scale variations as I feel the help me gain a freedom of playing allowing me to come up with new variations.
Erik, I love the sound of your medative exercises but as you can see it falls right down my list although I often do all of the above very slowly.
I think what you describe would be much easier in person or possibly on a video, could you do one ? I also think that you must have to have a really intimate knowledge of what is correct.
But I really want to try it and have no video camera at the moment so I will try to describe trying your technique, and perhaps you can give me some tips.
I am trying to improve my arpeggio and PIMA is particularly weak.
I place my right arm, hand in what I have been taught as good position. I prepare to play a sequential planted arpeggio with my fingers hovering above the string.
I imagine what the arpeggio will sound like.
I pluck a bass string and relax.
Next I use my I finger to pluck the g string. I pull it into my palm to make sure I develop the using the bigger muscles in my arm (this was taught to me by someone taught by Paco Peña)
The finger does not return by itself so I try to relax my muscles and return it near the g string.
Next it's the M finger, I pull that into my palm I notice how this is tied to my A finger and there is more tension in my hand, my fingers move a little further from position now. Slowly I return the M finger.
Now for the A finger. I think this feels the weakest and my nail needs to be a little longer.
So please excuse the detail but Erik I am trying to follow your suggestions. What do I do now ? and how will it improve my playing more than following my old routines ?
Excuse the long post, everyone else is watching television and I can't be bothered.
Thanks for reading.
Cheers
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 26 2012 18:49:35
 |
|
at_leo_87
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
|
|
RE: Flamenco Playing and Practice Time (in reply to Ruphus)
|
|
|
Hi Erik,
it seemed like your method was able to give you really quick results in little time. do you think if had played consistently and for more hours, you would choose a different approach? that approach obviously worked well for you in that situation, but if things were different, would you practice differently as well?
also, do you have any recommendations for books?
quote:
Getting to there / starting exercises from there compares to an approach of `hauling away with the luggage´ like dynamic body exercises for muscle gaining to isometric ones.
The latter ones, correctly executed, yield way more muscle tissue at much faster pace and with way shorter execution time ( like dynamic example ~ 10 min, isometric example 50 seconds).
sources please?
from what i understand and have experienced,
heavy dynamic compound movements + progressive overload = scarcoplasmic and/or myofibrillar hypertrophy.
emphasis on full ROM and slow eccentric for sarcoplamis hypertrophy.
quote:
However, dynamic exercising is so much easier to get into. On average performance you can even if go completely astray with your thoughts, watching TV besides or listening to your mp3-player.
dynamic exercising is fun and effective. that's why it's popular.
you're not lifting heavy enough if you can watch tv.
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 26 2012 20:34:02
|
|
Munin
Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong
|
|
RE: Flamenco Playing and Practice Time (in reply to ToddK)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ToddK
quote:
I wouldn't say the 10000hr thing is completely false. That comes out to about 5-6 hours a day over 6 years.
Ericson claims its 10 years but doesn't go into more detail. Anyway, here are three interesting articles on skill acquisition if you're bored.
The point is, its not the number of hours, its what you're doing with them.
And what you're thinking about what you're doing. Your physical and mental predisposition. Your childhood environment, and on and on and on.
You can practice 5 hours a day for 20 years, and totally suck ass.
Thats been proven by many unfortunate people. :)
I'm willing to bet that the majority of
the people who advocate the 10,000 hours stuff, are not
very good guitar players, or guitar players period, or even musicians.
Any truly exceptional player realizes they arrived where they are by
everything other than a finite number of hours.
It's not supposed to be a hard rule. Nobody is saying "practice 10,000 hours and you'll be Paco". It's just a general observation that has been made about outstanding artists, virtuosos and the likes, and like you say, one factor that contributes to the overall development.
If anyone is interested in the topic, I can only recommend Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers", a very interesting book that tries to examine what makes all those special people special (artists, entrepreneurs, etc).
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 28 2012 6:18:25
|
|
Kevin
Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
|
|
RE: Flamenco Playing and Practice Time (in reply to ToddK)
|
|
|
quote:
You can practice 5 hours a day for 20 years, and totally suck ass.
Thats been proven by many unfortunate people.
I get your drift but disagree based on how one defines practice. If you even glanced at any of the three articles you would know that practice is defined as deliberate, goal oriented effort.
You can noodle 5 hours a day and suck after twenty years, on this we agree. However, based on empirical studies in cognition and physiology and other fields, if you practice for 5 hrs/day for 6 years, you will achieve expert level skill.
quote:
Any truly exceptional player realizes they arrived where they are by
everything other than a finite number of hours.
There is no finite number of hours, only an amount recommended by scientists in several fields to acquire a high level. Any good musician knows that the path is more important. Both of the people I studied with spent years of 8 and 13 hours a day respectively but would also add that you have to spend a significant amount of time maintaining that skill once you acquire that level, and probably more if you are trying to overcome additional barriers.
I personally recommend that most people here take some lessons with Grisha via Skype. He will get you thinking about deliberate practice and "shocking your fingers" into new ways of articulating arpeggios, scales, etc. As for me, I am staying off the foro as much as possible and practicing 4-6 hrs/day while I also work on my thesis.
Happy New Year to everyone if I don't come back soon.
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 28 2012 6:48:30
|
|
Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
|
|
RE: Flamenco Playing and Practice Time (in reply to guitarbuddha)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
quote:
ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch
Many of the exercises i did were incredibly easy in physical execution (thinking about lifting a finger comes close) but extremely demanding when it came to generating the focus to benefit from them.
I am careful to avoid such exercises now. I now believe that exercises by their very physicality should AID focus.
Anything which has the opposite effect leads to the problems you have been describing.
D.
That sounds very much how i looked at it before i knew the true meaning of focus...i could very easily do scales and other kind of finger exercises (applying basic levels of awareness, monitoring, validation and adjusting) without going to hell and back (assuming that's the problem you referred to)...but that basic level of focus did not dramatically improved my capacities.
I guess you have focus and focus...the focus i mean involves living the object of your focus with all your senses...you have to feel it, see it, hear it, taste it, smell it....the focus i mean obviously involves constant and unconditional awareness, monitoring, validation and adjusting but on a totally different level applying 100 times more focus on a 1000 times smaller object.... you basically have to become one with the object of your focus and in a way you have to become that object yourself....and as soon as you found, lived and understand some (hind of) truth you must (try to) re-live that truth in your mind only as well (including feeling the physical contact, feeling the string vibrations, feeling everything...without moving a finger, just using your mind only).
The few times i was willing/able to focus to that extent it did indeed cost me blood, sweat and tears....but the reward was bigger than i could have imagined in my wildest dreams as well. The micro exercises did not only improve my physical skills dramatically, they also improved my ability to focus dramatically..... 10 years later i discovered that my tendency/ability to re-play those fragments of truth in my mind only as well (as real as real can be) basically was the guitar equivalent of the mental exercises monks in tibet use to improve the level of focus/meditation/imagination/awareness of there students...when done well it brings you in a higher state of awareness that lifts "focus" to a completely differed level....on top, thinking about a movement generates the same nerve-impuls as doing it for real...and growing (physical or mental) appeal on certain muscle-groups also increases the amount of nerves that hooks in to connect with it.
Quite recently (20 years after i applied it) i read that the monotone/meditational/hypnotical techniques i applied not only generates a higher state of awareness but also structurally changes your brain which starts to produce more grey-matter.
To give you an example of such "higher state of awareness"......after 2-3 weeks of total focus i obtained some kind of mental oscilloscope that somehow could slow down/freeze the trembling of the string.....re-plugging a trembling string to me suddenly felt like pushing someone on a swing...you have to do it on a very specific moment in time/movement...if you ad energy on the right moment(s) you add energy, if you do it on the wrong moment(s) you distract energy....wonder how many people experienced/enjoyed/applied that level of awareness/sensibility...i made the same progress in bio dynamica, energy transposal and tonal control.
After 3 weeks of total focus (2 hours a day) playing the guitar (temporary) became as easy to me as breathing ....it is unbelievable how easy it is to play the guitar if you can pair optimal relaxation to total control of input/output....but obtaining those tools was far from relaxed (at least to me) and i lost those capacities as soon as i stopped playing the guitar on a regular/daily base.
....oh, and i noticed an other (repeatable) advantage of those "40 hour rebirth sessions" (reprogramming yourself from scratch in order to free yourself of bad habits).....you discover that you are actually better of skipping the brain at all.....The first time it happened to me it felt like an alien force took over total control of my body.... from 1 second to the other i had nothing to say anymore about how my hands moved or the kind of music they produced....they were playing chords and melodies i'd never had seen and heart before....Scary?....not at all, if that alien force plays the guitar a 1000 times better than you could ever dream to do yourself and actually equals PDL you don't complain but simply enjoy every second given to you. It took me over 15 years to find a musician who "suffered" the same problem....he was one of the best musicians/stage performers i ever met and before every performance he took some quality time of meditating/mental preparation. He told me that visitor was not an alien force taken over control of the body but that at those moments your subconsciousness took over control of your body...i was never able to open that window on command but had to wait patiently till it offered it services to me which happened every now and then...but always in periods i was in the middle of (or just passed) a 40 hour rebirth session...not sure it was linked to the micro studies, the mental visualisations or the sheer fact that at those moments i would have favored 1 perfect execution of an open string over receiving 1.000.000 dollar...... appearingly that's what needed to become PDL......for a few seconds/minutes. I recently decided that those wonderful encounters with my subconsciousness probably are what we call duende...the last time it happened to me was 20 years ago and it was most definitely worth those trips to hell and back :-)
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 31 2012 3:01:17
|
|
Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
|
|
RE: Flamenco Playing and Practice Time (in reply to johnnefastis)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: johnnefastis
Hey Eric,
I love these stories, but I definitely think you need to put the hours
in to develop the muscles and internalisation of the rhythmic structures needed to play flamenco,
And that takes hours and hours of repetition.
It seems that your exercises open up a new understanding and connection
with the guitar once you have developed the technique needed to play.
That is 100% correct...before i applied my micro studies and the full focus approach i played the guitar for 18 years and i was a 4th year student of Paco Penã's University School of Flamenco Guitar so i had the muscles, nerves, brains and musical knowledge to face the adventure.
My "40 hour" power-study is mend for professional players to open up a new understanding and connection with both the guitar, the body, and the music ....don't think for a second you have developed the tools needed to play.... unless you play like PDL and a handful of others :-)
i gave some examples in other posts and will give some additional examples in future as well....studying short muscle/nerve pulses is part of the program but the over majority is quite the opposite of fast staccato.... and i don't only imagine the sound of each note before/after i play it but also the physical contact, the biodynamics involved, the energy transposal and the resulting string vibration....once i know for sure that thought is 100% correct and as such WORTH repeating. Micro studies means working on 1 note, on 1 movement...most of the time even on parts of movements without plugging the string...like i said, THINKING of lifting a finger comes close :-)
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 31 2012 14:38:56
|
|
Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
|
|
RE: Flamenco Playing and Practice Time (in reply to johnnefastis)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: johnnefastis
Hi
Erik, I love the sound of your medative exercises but as you can see it falls right down my list although I often do all of the above very slowly.
I think what you describe would be much easier in person or possibly on a video, could you do one ? I also think that you must have to have a really intimate knowledge of what is correct.
But I really want to try it and have no video camera at the moment so I will try to describe trying your technique, and perhaps you can give me some tips.
I am trying to improve my arpeggio and PIMA is particularly weak.
I place my right arm, hand in what I have been taught as good position. I prepare to play a sequential planted arpeggio with my fingers hovering above the string.
I imagine what the arpeggio will sound like.
I pluck a bass string and relax.
Next I use my I finger to pluck the g string. I pull it into my palm to make sure I develop the using the bigger muscles in my arm (this was taught to me by someone taught by Paco Peña)
The finger does not return by itself so I try to relax my muscles and return it near the g string.
Next it's the M finger, I pull that into my palm I notice how this is tied to my A finger and there is more tension in my hand, my fingers move a little further from position now. Slowly I return the M finger.
Now for the A finger. I think this feels the weakest and my nail needs to be a little longer.
So please excuse the detail but Erik I am trying to follow your suggestions. What do I do now ? and how will it improve my playing more than following my old routines ?
Excuse the long post, everyone else is watching television and I can't be bothered.
Thanks for reading.
Cheers
The micro techniques you refer to come on top of the normal exercises and were developed for personal use after i played the guitar for 18 years and studied/played flamenco on a "professional level" for 4 years....so like johnnefastis helped me to remember....my micro exercises open up a new understanding and connection with both the body and the guitar after one have developed the technique needed to play (although some of those techniques can also help you to shorten that way).
With both pami and pima i generally don't return the fingers right away but all 3 fingers fall back in position when i play the next thump...however, studying fingers on an individual base like that is 1 of the pilars of my micro studies and in various types of arpeggio pre-exercises those fingers going back straight away are an excellent way to connect with your finger (for instance playing the same finger a couple of times on a row in order to study the movement, biomechanics, relaxation and energy generating/transposal of that individual finger)....if you study various levels and kinds of energy input (varying the amount, length and type of muscle/nerve involvement) you will notice that a relaxed finger on a relaxed hand only falls back in starting position automatically when the movement is quick enough, in other words when the nerve/muscle input is very short and cut off right away....it's nice to know that a totally relaxed muscle is also more responsive to those small/short nerve pulses :-).
I agree a personal meeting or video works better but you might find some help in these posts.
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=219316&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=1&smode=1&s=#219661
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=210419&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=1&smode=1&s=#210744
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=207861&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=creative%2Cways&tmode=&smode=&s=#210762
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 6 2013 3:26:28
|
|
Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
|
|
RE: Flamenco Playing and Practice Time (in reply to johnnefastis)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: johnnefastis
Thanks Erik
quote:
you will notice that a relaxed finger on a relaxed hand only falls back in starting position automatically when the movement is quick enough
Wow thats quite amazing, its really true I had never really noticed that before, its a bit like a spring. Actually to the point of possibly making the the note too short and and not letting it ring out.
From your descriptions I always imagined that everything would be played in slow motion but you mean studying rapid movements like that with plenty of space between to reflect on what is happening ?
Cheers
that is happening AS WELL.....the secret is studying with full awareness, focusing on what works and what don't work. Studying rapid movements like that with plenty space between to reflect is part of those investigations. To play the guitar you must be able to control your fingers, to generate/transpose various kinds of energy corresponding with various kinds of tonal colors/developments...Since your brain is limited the best way to study is slowly slowly slowly, focussing on various aspects at the time....the smaller the object of your focus, the bigger the result on the long term......
Focussing on the effects of various kinds of energy input is one of them and that obviously also involves studying short/rapid pulses (you have to study everything to understand a little of all)....when and how you use the things that work depends on the situation....like i said in arpeggio i don't use "blitzkrieg" energy-pulses when i play slowly (the fingers use the full time they have to start/complete the circle "return and plug"....but if you study individual fingers (or play the arpeggio extremely fast) short energy-pulses may indeed be your weapon of choice....
I constantly adapt my strategy to the situation and playing something in slow motion can flourish with "totally different techniques" than playing it at full speed. My father thinks you should do slowly what you do at full speed but i don't think that is possible in all situations.....you can't practice running in slow motion because you need the additional speed to be able to hold both feet in the air simultaneously....
We both agree that before you can run you must be able to lift yourself, you must learn to stand and hold balance, to do a few steps....to walk a long distance before you will be able to run. You have to develop muscles, nerves and sense of orientation....my father integrates that progression as well but once those tools are developed he favors to slow down the actions in full speed 1:1. But even if you can run, you can't copy that to slow motion. So unlike my father i alter my technique when i play at different tempos....i search for total relaxation in all situations and if the situation changes, my approach might change as well.....my brain and hands somehow automatically adapt new strategies at higher speeds when needed...Paco Peña does this as well....he also studied every molecule of his body and his guitar to reach that flexibility.
JohnWalshGuitar also flourished to study "slowly, slowly, slowly and deliberately... with a clear idea of were i was trying to go and making sure once that movement was conceptualized that it was repeated in the very same manner each time so as to more quickly develop muscle memory.
I can add to that...only repeat things that are worthy repeating and focus on realistic sub goals with a good balance between challenging yourself and setting reachable goals.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 6 2013 12:58:44
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.109375 secs.
|
Printable Version
