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RE: American Freedom?
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: American Freedom? (in reply to BarkellWH)
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Bill-
Thanks for the book references. As you can tell by my simple-minded attempt to "put the jam on a lower shelf for the little man" as Ralph Yarbrough the Senator from Texas used to say, I have done little reading that focuses specifically on the American processes of the atomic bomb decision. In 1999-2001 the English language books prompted by the Japanese publication of the Imperial Household diaries came out. They focused on the Emperor's role in the war in general and in particular the last days, and the Imperial Court's attitudes toward surrender and Japan's diplomacy in the last days.
My view of the American process was formed from knowledge as a teenager of the top echelons of the U.S. Air Force. All the Vice Chiefs lived on our street, and Arnold, Vandenburg and Twining were family friends from way back when they were captains and majors. These people discussed the final days of the Pacific war often enough within my hearing for me to pick up a little knowledge and form some opinions of the American attitudes and views that went into the decision.
The upper echelons of the Air Force generally had a low opinion of Truman, as compared to Roosevelt, but of course this never seeped into public knowledge. But they supported his decision to use the bomb as strongly as they were dismayed by his dismissal of MacArthur.
But getting to the point, you recommend Miscamble's book about the American decision process. How would it compare to Richard Frank's "Downfall", which reviews say cover the same ground in more detail, plus other topics of the end of the war in the Pacific?
Thanks,
RNJ
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Date Dec. 15 2012 0:12:26
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: American Freedom? (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
We've all read about links between Henry Ford and the NAZI party, old news. And to lay the fault of the quakery of Eugenics as an influence on NAZIism on Americans is pure nonsense so don't even try that. We made the study eugenics and it's narrow thinking kind immoral in the US before the Nazi philosphers seized upon it. Notice we don't practice Eugenics, however there are many advocates of modern Eugenis practices in India today.
Go take up you straw arguments with India. And do some in depth real research before you accuse. You're what one of my old buddhist teachers called "the two inch scholar" because you only dig two inches deep and don't really till into the dirt of knowledge. Most aggravating.
Good day.
Hitler was not only supported by Ford, and I have been mentioning several other US actions of that time anyway that do not really suit the official motto of integrity. Actions of which at least one I am still waiting for the defenders to educate me on. So, maybe you could finally share your depth of knowledge on why the US released the very vast of leading Nazis untouched and quickly into their former positions in state and industry, and why in cooperation with the Vatican piloted all too burned personalities to places abroad?
And while at that, maybe you could also elaborate on how come that the US administration in the occupation zone never cared to honor the brave German civilians who had resisted the Nazi regime and been hiding refugees under lethal risk for themselves.
Why did they and the later to their demand following German republic administration let these actual heros of humanity down? Deprived of their pensions as "traitors" and robbed of any plattform, with most of them passing away as sidelined, broken, depressed an impoverished?
Why can´t you answer such, if so convinced of the honourable status of your `state of the people´?
Or may bunches of questionable conducts just be of the embraced conspiracy theory suite, while official cornerstones in between the turds shall suffice as fundamental?
You may forgive me my two inch scholar-being; not everyone can be of a depth provided by levels of patriotism.
And asides, notwithstanding my great sympathy for the basic attitude of buddhism: Where does your buddhist teacher take the sophistication from, as a follower of principle plausibility flaws like a suggested entity that was to only be in place under subject´s attention?
The Dalai Lama´s own trials to excurse intelectually have hence also not really been to his laurel.
Not with his attempt to find parallels to basics of quantum physics, and lesser even with his manager reader that revealed how he has no clue of capitalist basics. ( And his office won´t even thank you for related pointers. Possibly for the buddhist pillar that there won´t be what shall not. - Which brings us back to your apparent philosophy on this topic.)
Ruphus
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Date Dec. 15 2012 10:44:33
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: American Freedom? (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
Hitler was not only supported by Ford, and I have been mentioning several other US actions of that time anyway that do not really suit the official motto of integrity. Actions of which at least one I am still waiting for the defenders to educate me on.
You are beyond being educated because you do not want to be educated. You do not want to consider anything the United States did (or didn't) do that would interfere with your ideological antipathy toward the United States. You think you are producing an amazing revelation that Henry Ford was sympathetic toward the Nazis. As Stephen pointed out, that is old news. Let me give you a couple more examples of sympathizers, to a greater or lesser degree, of the Nazis: Charles Lindbergh and our Ambassador to the Court of St. James Joseph P. Kennedy, father of President John F. Kennedy. Now you can add their names to your roster of reasons to condemn the U.S. What you will fail to see, however, are all the good people, both in and out of the U.S. Goverment, who did not agree with them, and who realized we eventually would have to get into the fight against Hitler, which we did.
You and a couple of your ideological colleagues on the Foro are simply deaf to anything but your one-note ideological tune. A post above is a good example: "On one hand there's Nuremberg trial and on the others side the collaborative silence. I don't know what to think. That's very sad." Collaborative silence? This demonstrates an astounding ignorance of history. The Tokyo War Crimes Tribunals were held in 1946. It was the Far East equivalent of the Nuremberg Trials mentioned by the post. At the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunals, 28 Japanese military and political leaders were charged with Class A war crimes and 5,700 Japanese nationals were charged with Class B and C war crimes. But you wouldn't know it to read the comments posted by your ideolgically-driven colleague.
Another of your colleagues posted: "Hitler had a different approach. Meanwhile the US tried to save lives by nuking big cities, the Nazis tried to save lives by putting people into KZs. They should have combined their forces, that way even more people could have been saved..." This post does not deserve a response. I mention it, however, to illustrate the lack of intelligent thought that passes for a "discussion" among you and your ideological colleagues.
As you sit upon your perch, passing judgment on those with whom you disagree, you might consider educating yourself, instead of waiting, as you suggest with your usual fraudulent sense of moral superiority, "for the defenders to educate me."
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 15 2012 13:41:30
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mezzo
Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr
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RE: American Freedom? (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
Collaborative silence? This demonstrates an astounding ignorance of history. The Tokyo War Crimes Tribunals were held in 1946. It was the Far East equivalent of the Nuremberg Trials mentioned by the post. At the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunals, 28 Japanese military and political leaders were charged with Class A war crimes and 5,700 Japanese nationals were charged with Class B and C war crimes. But you wouldn't know it to read the comments posted by your ideolgically-driven colleague
Compared to your high level of knowledge, I'm no doubt an ignorant regarding History. I'm not denied it, indeed I claimed it in my previous post.
That's why I asked for some enlightments. My point was maybe a bit confuse and unclear. If you reread my post, I only talk about the Unit 731, of Shirō Ishii and others responsible of what happened in this horrific context.
When I said "collaborative silence", I was refering to the omerta surrounding the unit 731 case. Shirō Ishii has been left alone, quiet. U.S Mc Arthur command made a deal with them. Do you agree with this or not?
These war crimes (perpetred in the 731 unit) weren't judged at all. Despite the awarness of the U.S., no denoucement of it. Why?
More than that, these particular war criminal enjoyed protection and retribution(?). Why? And how was it possible (on a moral side I mean)?
In 2002, the members of unit 731 and their experiments were recognized as war crime and crime against humanity.
In 2002 Bill, not 1946!!
That is what my post was about. I imagine you're not going to answer to it, even if you have the knowledge and perspective. But maybe others members will.
I could also mention the PAPERCLIP operation. But for the moment the Unit 731 case, might be enough.
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
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Date Dec. 15 2012 14:43:32
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: American Freedom? (in reply to mezzo)
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Your comment comparing the Nuremberg Trials held for Nazis with "collaborative silence" in the case of Japan appeared to indicate that you thought equivalent war crimes tribunals were not held for Japanese military and political leaders. They were, and that is the issue I was addressing. Regarding Unit 731, and no doubt other elements that deserved to be on trial, I am not going to address every element that probably should have been charged but wasn't at the time.
There were then, and still are today, those who think Emperor Hirohito should have been charged and tried. There is enough evidence that he knew and approved of Japan's aggression. My own opinion is that MacArthur was smart not to put him on trial. It was far more important that Japanese society remain intact, which required the emperor. There no doubt were other Nazis that should have been on trial at Nuremberg as well, but it would be fruitless to track down the reasons each individual who should have been put on trial was not.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Dec. 15 2012 16:16:58
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: American Freedom? (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
You think you are producing an amazing revelation that Henry Ford was sympathetic toward the Nazis.
Not really, this one is just too well spread.
It was rather the "nazi lorries built by Chrysler and their tanks built by GM, Standard Oil´s supply of fuel and oil up to 1944, or SKF ball bearings until 1945" that I thought could bemaking you thinking, but obviously that´s just too ordinary and legit background as well, innit.
From there I suppose a funding of early Hitler´s popularity wont present a big deal either.
Let alone bagatells like of my last post.
Truth ought to be that the USA´s policies then and until today have been the strivings of sincere and ethically concerned heads who have been trying to improve the world and bless it with democracy and justice. Why the hell am I reluctant to see this?
Only for some darn flyspecks on annals? What a smal time ...
Why only is such a large part of the world so ungreatful for the political godsend of US history?
And that even while in the same time gladly appreciating the cultural achievements and beauty of that country and its people, which have been celebrated and immitated all over the planet?
Its it just because they need something to tar and feather?
A string of privileged´s craftyness against guileless since Columbus´ followers´ times up to unscrupulous sacrifice of own trusting underlings when needed like in Pearl Harbour, Nevada or Iraqs Desert Storm ( and its denial / neglect of compensation and health care) unintended accidents of upright struggling? Inevitable scrapes falling where there is reasonable planing down?
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
As Stephen pointed out, that is old news. Let me give you a couple more examples of sympathizers, to a greater or lesser degree, of the Nazis: Charles Lindbergh ...
I thought already that you wouldn´t click on the links above. Why look into old chestnuts. -
Bill,
Any concrete thought on the question in my last post?
Ruphus
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Date Dec. 15 2012 18:41:03
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: American Freedom? (in reply to mezzo)
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Now that we're making jokes about mass slaughter, let me point out that you prosecutors are wasting your time over nearly nothing. Only around 200,000 people died under the atomic bombing. And this was just a tiny fragment of the whole indictment of America the Great Satan.
Now, now, remember this is just a joke I'm making!
Somewhere around 50-million civilians died in WW II, about twice the number of military fatalities, and around 250 times as many as died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Think of the opportunities for assigning blame to all those deaths. It would look far better on your resumès as judges of morality if you were to look at the whole deal, rather than spending all your time on a tiny part of the subject. And your moral superiority would soar to stratospheric levels, inflated by the psychic corpses of 50-million innocent victims.
Or are you just practicing on judging the atomic bombing before you put on your robes and call the court to order on the big picture? But you had your verdict on Hiroshima and Nagasaki before you heard the testimony, so why not move on to bigger things?
And, just to impress us further, could you let us know what the greatest moral issue is that you have faced personally, how you arrived at your decision, and how it turned out in the end? I'm sure you are all immensely qualified besides being expert Googlers--everything anyone ever needs to know is on the internet--but just a few more resumè bullets would help me to sign off on the absolute evil of...who shall it be? You are the experts!
Just joking of course. No offense meant, no harm done. See, here´s a smiley face 
RNJ
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Date Dec. 15 2012 19:24:26
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: American Freedom? (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
Not really, this one is just too well spread.
It was rather the "nazi lorries built by Chrysler and their tanks built by GM, Standard Oil´s supply of fuel and oil up to 1944, or SKF ball bearings until 1945" t
This is hilarious, you've really gone off the deep end.
By your logic of muckraking the fuselages of the V-2 buzz bombs that pelted London were obviously cast in foundries in Englishindustrial towns and shipped across the channel, smuggled through France to the launch sites where German engineers merely put rocket engines in them. Then by happen stance the engines self ignited and navigated back over the channel to England where they happened to terrorize the people of London. And Germany sat back and said "Oh my those British are just shooting at themselves."
The North American P-51 Mustang fighter went from a drawing on a napkin at a lunch where designers were trying to figure out how to keep German planes from getting near England. It took 90 days from the drawing on a napkin until the P-51's were rolling off the line and being flown to Greenland for Pick by fliers in England.
The P-51's entered the war and along with the excellent pilots of the RAF who flew Spitfires they fought of the Luftwaffe who were aggressively trying to flatten England. The US did not have time to sell Germany arms or supplies.
The tanks and lorries you speak are were also a fabrication from your imagination. Germany built Tiger and Panzer tanks which were finicky machines which often broke down and had to be abandoned. While on the other hand GM motors was busy building US tanks which had inter changeable parts and could run on, like our dogged B-17 bombers, even if they had severe battle damage.
The P-51s flew cover to keep ME 109's at bay so the B-17's could fly for hours and hours from England over France to Germany to bomb ball bearing factories....but I guess now you will tell me that that is why we bombed German ball bearing factories, so we capitalists could make more ball bearings to sell to germany so we could prolong the war. Sorry chum, that was Vietnam, you picked the wrong war to get pissy about.
By the way we won the war, and England did not fall to Germany. Not that the Americans were the lynchpins of securing that safety, but they did not hurt the British by selling ball bearings to Germany. ....Oh wait you'll now tell me we had to pay England rent on the B-17 bases so they cold get a kick back form our ball bearing sales.
And of course there were those German secret codes that US merchant marine captains had that they sent to German U boat captains saying "Oh we have your precious ball bearings and we are on the way to Bremen. Do not sink us in the middle of the Atlantic ocean and leave my crew to die of hypothermia. Said no sane person, ever.
And what of the decisions Churchill had to make vis a vis codes? HMMM? Would you like to try Churchill as a war criminal because he had to sacrifice English towns to German bombing, or give up the information that if he evacuated the town it would send the message to the Germans that the codes had been broken?
You guys who sit back and accuse 70 years later have not the slightest idea what you're talking about of any idea about the pressures the leaders faced down.
But please continue to enlighten me and I'll be certain now to go off somewhere something useful in the world. Also you'll need to got to the library and read multiple books on the subjects while cross referencing your texts. Wiki searches and biased websites are not reliable data for cross referencing texts or worthy of basing a debate upon.
Maybe also tell me why hundreds of high level NAZI officers escaped to South America and evaded prosecution? Oh sorry to ask that, I know that it not a "convenient" question.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Dec. 15 2012 19:36:10
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: American Freedom? (in reply to estebanana)
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No, no, Stephen. You've got it backwards. You start with the fact that America is absolutely evil, then find evidence--or any assertion on the internet-- that supports your belief. I started to say "conclusion", but you can't call it "conclusion" if that's what you start with, can you?
That's how the experts did it who made the case for America's pre-emptive strike on Iraq. That's how the guys did it who told Kennedy the Bay of Pigs would be a picnic at the beach. And by the way, if anyone tries to contradict you, just call them liars, fools or scoundrels. That will take care of that. I'm telling you, those intel guys were the experts, they knew what they were doing.
After you have spodged together your evidence, then you gird your loins and smite America--or whoever you're pissed off at. Well, maybe not America right this minute. They're so evil that....well, you know...they might even fight back! Horrors! So...maybe you'd better just get on the internet and bitch them out? You could use screen names and stuff so they wouldn't even know who you are. Yeah, that's the ticket...
Jokey, jokey, King's X! 
RNJ
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Date Dec. 15 2012 20:01:09
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: American Freedom? (in reply to XXX)
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It's not really worth my time and I don't view it as productive, but sure I could turn the debate around and start asking the questions. I'm not in a good mood any longer at seeing people field questions politely, thought fully and then being rudely mocked.
I could mount an excoriating attack on those who keep asking lame questions, but really it would not do anything because they don't research deeply or listen to others. This mode reminds me of the last presidential debates in which Romney in the first debate evaded giving any substantive answers by using the tactic of throwing out as many half true counter questions as he could. A kind of perversion of Socratic method where you use the method to produce subterfuge in the conversation instead of propel it forward. Like a rhetorical feedback loop. This is tactic is used by anti evolution fanatics when they debate sane people.
I'll say it once more because it does not seem to sink in; I think it is fashionable and simple minded to search the internet and find "causes" that outrage you. But to make snap decision blame whomever is at hand for something that outrages you, (or demand they explain it to you) about history is not smart, nor is it deep thinking.
This weak kind of debate method is what we called in college flavor of the month outrage. Which event are you going to be angry about now? And why? We all act out of emotional need to react to something we find horrific, but how you assign blame or accuse someone about a third party that suffered an injustice that you learned of on the internet, minutes, hours days week ago?
It bothers me a lot, it bothers be because I see it as disingenous caring, false empathy or prideful empathy. It gives a reason to accuse someone else because of national associations in this case, and it is to me an extension of ego rather than real meditation on the injustice.
In these accusations, these really finger pointing exersizes, I have heard not one shred of empathy, caring or words about how the actual victims must have felt. Which makes me think that the victims are being thrown under the bus by those who simply have a personal axe to grind with the US and the victims are available to toss.
It is difficult for some to hear, but sure the US has done some pretty bad things. You think we don't know that? You really think you are telling us something about our selves we have not self reflected on, over and over? You think hitting people over the head wt this is going to make things better? It's the anger with yourself you need to deal with if the answers are yes. And if you are acting out of anger and using the victims of these terrible acts to state your cases then you better darn well get to know those victims better before you throw them in someone else face and claim outrage.
Which atrocity is your flavor of the month atrocity? Which one is easy to use to express your own person anger? Why stop stop historically with the US? Why not go back to the Ottoman Empire. How about Armenia or those Jews?
Too many questions?
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Dec. 15 2012 20:39:22
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: American Freedom? (in reply to estebanana)
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Yes. God bless them.
There were a couple of sad moments for a guy whose Dad fire-bombed Tokyo, and a girl who grew up there with a mother who survived that one. A girl whose country tried to kill my uncles at Pearl Harbor, and succeeded in killing several million others. A guy whose country killed 200,000 of her civilian compatriots with only two bombs dropped less than a week apart. A guy whose Dad was on MacArthur's staff during the Occupation, presiding over the systematic eradication of large swathes of Japanese cultural attitudes. A girl whose father was an assimilated German Jew who left right after Kristallnacht, and went back after the war, unable to find a single living relative from a large and prosperous family. A girl whose father once looked me in the eye and said, "We thought we were Germans."
We even cried about it a couple of times. We talked about it, but we never even disagreed over it, much less fought. We just kind of shook our heads over what people were capable of. And the next morning we got up, pulled up our socks and went back to work. Despite all that stuff we managed to love each other and enjoy many of the blessings of life.
Her parents' beautiful cross cultural marriage set a good example. The first time I visited their house in San Francisco her mother had inquired about my taste and baked an excellent cherry pie to serve with coffee. After we left I said something about, "your mother's room". My girl looked at me quizzically. Most of the house was decorated in good American taste. "The four-tatami room with the beautiful Japanese antiques and wood block prints."
"Oh," she laughed. "That's Daddy's room. He misses Japan."
My parents' love and toleration set a good example too, despite political differences and differing convictions about race. My mother's father ran for the U.S. Senate on the Socialist ticket in the 1920s. My Dad was one of the first active Republicans in Texas in the 20th century. My father's father still stood up when the band played "Dixie", the unofficial national anthem of the slave holding Confederacy. My mother's mother grew up across the street from Abraham Lincoln's house in Springfield, Illinois. Lincoln was long gone, but Mrs Lincoln survived until the year my grandmother was born. Dad finally saw the light after Ike asked him to take a hand in integrating the Air Force. Mom and Dad tolerated, respected, loved and supported one another for 65 years.
My girl and I only fought once. It was pretty silly. We ended up laughing our a$$es off over the sudden escalation of verbal violence. Each of us knew we had met our match. It wasn't about any of the stuff above.
We were a lucky couple in the way we got along and loved each other and untangled the crossed cultural wires bit by bit. My thanks still go to whatever it was that blessed us.
So bless those children who grew up and are growing up "half", as my girl used to say.
RNJ
..a sip of that Macallan maybe? And a pleasant good night to all...
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Date Dec. 16 2012 4:03:09
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: American Freedom? (in reply to estebanana)
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First, I don't think most Americans (or citizens of most modernized countries) spend much time reflecting and philosophizing, as you seem to claim they do. Most people don't spend a lot of time meditating, praying, or philosophizing. They spend a lot of time doing and consuming. You know, work, shopping, children, TV, sports, movies, guitar, etc.
Second, I find it well within the rights of people who live in other countries to have their own, un-American, and perhaps even anti-American perspective on our country's actions. There are not a great deal of things that happen in this world that are not in some way controlled, shaped or influenced by the US. How does it look from the other side of the barrel? It seems ungenerous to deny the citizens of other countries their own experience.
_____________________________
Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ
Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Dec. 16 2012 4:56:09
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dformell
Posts: 126
Joined: Nov. 7 2010
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RE: American Freedom? (in reply to estebanana)
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The P-51 Mustang went from a napkin to test model in 117 days. The English gave North American 120 days to have a working prototype. The P-51 was originally powered by a GM Allison diesel engine. Even with the inferior power plant the P-51 showed great promise and was considered by the British far superior to any other American fighter. Initially the U.S.A.A.F. showed little interest in the plane. It was a British R.A.F. officer, I can't remember his name, who had the idea to mate the Rolls Royce Merlin engine with the P-51 air frame. Now with the new power plant the P-51's top speed increased from 390 MPH to 440 MPH. The P-51, along with the P-47, made the U.S. daylight bombing campaign successful. It can be argued that the U.S. daylight bombing campaign, more than anything else, ended the war in Europe. Hermann Goering quoted after the war, " when I saw American bombers with fighter escort over Germany I knew the gig was up". The above information was obtained long before the internet was around. Some thoughts about WWII are in order; Germany would have won the war If Hitler had listened to his Generals. Thank goodness Hitler was a megalomaniac. Herr Hitler made exactly 5 mistakes and they were:
1. The miracle of Dunkirk - General Heinz Guderian had the English & French surrounded with his Panzer units and could have annihilated them. Because of politics, Hermann Goering wanted the glory, Hitler ordered General Guderian to halt and gave the go ahead to the Luftwaffe. Because of bad weather the English and French bought a few days to evacuate.
2. The Battle of Britain - The original strategy was to bomb English air bases and radar sector stations, it was working all to well. Churchill told Roosevelt that if the Luftwaffe continues their strategy the English will loose control of their sky in 2 roughly weeks. However the English accidentally bombed Berlin which enraged Hitler and thus he switched to bombing English cities. This change in strategy gave the R.A.F. the respite that they needed.
3. Starting the Russian Campaign late - Wehrmacht troops were in the suburbs of Moscow when winter hit and brought them to a screeching halt. The offensive started 6 weeks late because Hitler, through a petty insult, declared war on Yugoslavia. Had the Wehrmacht been allowed to start the Russian campaign when they were suppose to they would have taken Moscow and probably Russia as well.
4. The North African Campaign - Had Hitler given Rommel the resources he requested Rommel most certainly would have been victorious. Rommel, with the proper resources, could have defeated the British before the Americans declared war and secured the oil fields in the middle east. The mediterranean almost became an axis lake. Rommel was fighting with a skeleton force and once the Americans came in that was it.
5. Jet Aircraft - The Luftwaffe could have had operational jets 1 year earlier then they did. The Messerschmitt ME262 was 1st flown in 1943 and could have been operational by early 1944. The ME 262 was far superior to any fighter the allies had and would have stopped the U.S. daylight bombing campaign dead in it's tracks. Why wasn't it operational sooner? That knucklehead Hitler wanted the plane to be a bomber thus production was delayed by roughly 1 year.
This post has nothing to do with the original but since everybody else is going off in all directions I figured if you can't beat them join them.
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Date Dec. 16 2012 9:31:47
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: American Freedom? (in reply to XXX)
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Thank you, Miguel!
To try and make a hater of Americans of me is a lumping simplification that my discussion opponents are well aware of.
I do not hate American people, I like them. And if it wasn´t so, my antipathy would have been evident since a while already. Same with the claim that I was raging along, while Stephen´s items like this: "Maybe also tell me why hundreds of high level NAZI officers escaped to South America and evaded prosecution?" indicates how his emotions must be hindering of noticing my questions ( which was exactly how he explained to himself the US organizing exactly those evadings ).
But such simplification of critic seems welcome to who is trying to hold up an image of sincere US politics, refusing to acknowledge the actual unethics behind it.
And it is beyond me how anyone with an IQ above 60 can stick to the illusion of a democratic base with the US history and power. Accepting the medial foolery of an authentic people´s society whichs worst of largely dscussed scandal was to have been the Watergate Affair, the actually most harmless of incidents on upper level.
Ignoring how firm networks are undermining anything democratic traditionally. Cutting down the parliament to a 2party puppet show, draining off from national wealth to liking, and with such a richly stuffed half of the continent not enough already, messing up the wolrd for even more ensured profit resource.
Full grown men who keep on sticking to an illusion obvious as it gets. The mindset that thought me crack-brained when I warned them of the US real estate bubble bursting ( only to see their personal damages about a year later ), and who appear keeping blind man's buff until last of days.
Believers who need US history and policy as labelled and will find explanations for diametrically opposed symptoms to that very last day.
We just have had a global creaming off of 52 billion USD from stock markets years ago, with none of the US-traditionally brain washed western populations hesitating for a moment, eating the tale of `actually never in existance´values, despite of their own vaporized possessions. Standing by like dazed while the capitalist heelers named "states" fill up the coups cavities with tax money. - With the banks resuming same ways right afterwards, demonstrating whose reign the "democracy" is.
What I see is total brain wash, and when I point to the USA´s history then not at all for any hatred against the people there, but for to make clear the obvious. Who the reciter is of that common sense´s safe world in which allegedly authentic instances are administrating on behalf of justice, humanity, environment and future.
Here it is where I actually get emotional.
How on earth can you eat this bluff?
You, - who I do not hate at all, but sincerely respect and take as fellow men?
How do you manage to edge out that actual evil, yes outright evil that is squeezing of this world for absolutely needless pathological greed, and about to extinct a blue planet as hardly any other in thinkable reach?
Has the sly shallow stereotype of men´s blind nature and of harmonys tediousness made you incabale of empirics and imagination?
Do you really believe things couldn´t be had diametrically better?
Do billions of craving, trillions of cruel perishing tell you nothing; stay inevitable?
What do you think happened on the climate meeting of days ago?
Why do you think it happened?
What do you think happened in Connecticut the day before yesterday?
Why do you think do such sick atrocities among people grow?
Why won´t misery decrease again and again despite of supremely progressing means of technology?
I am looking at my pedestrian brothers in disbelieve. Seriously.
Ruphus
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Date Dec. 16 2012 10:20:47
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: American Freedom? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
And this was just a tiny fragment of the whole indictment of America the Great Satan.
Somewhere around 50-million civilians died in WW II, about twice the number of military fatalities, and around 250 times as many as died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Think of the opportunities for assigning blame to all those deaths. It would look far better on your resumès as judges of morality if you were to look at the whole deal, rather than spending all your time on a tiny part of the subject. And your moral superiority would soar to stratospheric levels, inflated by the psychic corpses of 50-million innocent victims.
How does having killed even more people outside the 2 nuked areas does make it better for America? Are you serious?
Also im not judging morally. Really what high moral do you need to label such act as barbaric? Laughing my ass off. Specifically targeting civillians to end a war a couple of weeks, months, earlier, when the enemy had no means to threaten oneself. To my knowledge it is the single highest number of death causing human induced incident in history and as such the peak of irrationality to me, which wouldnt even deserve my attention, hadnt this fine, civilized nation have a claim to rule the world. Dont know, but maybe it is time to get real and stop putting words into others mouths they didnt use.
Oh and of course... i didnt "make jokes about mass slaughter". I made jokes about a defense of mass slaughter. But its all written above anyway (" the fun part of it being your contradictory defense of a nuke saving lives."), you would have noticed if your post wasnt a semi-raging attempt to delegitmize others, and by that i mean focusing on a persons credibility, instead of judging someone by what he says.
_____________________________
Фламенко
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Date Dec. 16 2012 11:20:28
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: American Freedom? (in reply to Ruphus)
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Ruphus,
But as far as being brainwashed--yes, of course, and being very prosperous, did we really have reason to question? One thing I would point out is that the universal school system, coupled with a tightly controlled mass media, probably crystallized the system of control in the first half of the 20th century. At the same time, the countervailing effect of religion, family ties, and a sense of community were all shattered. The result was an amazingly homogenous population with strong group identity, and almost nothing to counter the values and messages of the mass media.
I do feel that the system of control is falling apart. With the internet, the message is not so easy to control. More information and opinions are available. Declining prosperity and a steady foot on the throat is causing the average American to question some of the old stories. I think most of us are aware that our standard of living is going down, that things cost more, that our future and our children's future does not look good. In the meantime, we have our indoctrination to fall back upon.
But, in defense of Americans, realize that most of us look on the world through a window provided by the mass media. Every event, whether local or global, our business or not, is always shaded to reinforce the accepted narrative. And then, at the water cooler, our conversations go to that same ground. It is really not so easy to escape, and there is not much comfort in that escape.
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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Dec. 16 2012 15:04:04
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: American Freedom? (in reply to XXX)
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Hi Miguel,
I see the medial development just as you describe. Including the priceless effects of the internet and the threatening circumcision of it.
What puzzles me beyond of what one might consider about factual manipulation however, is the wide spread conclusive impotence. An inability to associate and connect coherences.
Concerning afore mentioned banalities or just for instance the out of hand conditions with say health care or energy supply in Germany.
In sight of the first case medical staff striking, news reports over weeks etc. pp. and talk rounds in the press and media pondering about bottlenecks due to costs.
"Costs" in the sense of `act of nature´, you know.
With NOONE including the doctors getting the slightest notion of a totally through the roof profiteering of pharmaceuticals and medical device supplying industries. ( I had to shove heaps of hard facts down the throat of a Dr. cousine of mine, before she even reluctantly acknowledged the blatant drain in that section of the industry. Mind you: While she being of the daily effected herself, unable paying off her office yet after decades!)
Jezz, times have reached fees of several thousand bucks per default day in hospital, in less and lesser luxurious ( and desinfected ) ambience, with over stressed and under paid staff in the same time, and yet it will not become obviouis what is going on, only because of affluent´s thriving lobby work?
That is a kind of perfection superceeding your wildest nightmares of cognitive drought.
Just like with an out of hand energy profiteering.
In Germany the approppriation of the states combines was not too long ago, with the new owners having started the price pitching right on from first day. Often times raising prices even in time increments of only some months. The supply tarifs meanwhile having reached dimensions that are ruining parts of the middle class. ( Come to think of it: For plain current!!)
If people just can´t remember energy costs of some years ago: How much brain does it take yet to realize how remotely reasonable billing would be looking like?
State´s facilities worth hundreds of billions and even trillions have been abstracted right before people´s eyes to then be used for to squeeze the living **** out of these same people once again by privatiers, and yet: The squeezed will not perceive the ongoings as long as the media will strictly omit to deal with anything beyond that mysterious term named "price" or "cost".
"Costs" according to whome?
Didn´t you know, price and costs are supernatural phenomenons.
Really, you got to be wonder whether there could be something to conspiracy theories like the one about Haarp.
The given cognitive mass dysfunction to my understanding cannot be achieved by result of fragile / heil seeking psyche and spoon feeding means alone. The whole combine of low culture product from undemanding music, awkward painting, lousy sculpturing and superficial literature down to aligned story boards for movies ( in which political rebells, environment or wild life defending characters tend to routingly turn out as hypocrite maniacs or serial nutcases; in case that you ever noticed ) as forming as it must be, cannot effect the stunning level of brain wash.
I at least don´t see how culture alone could yield as efficient as things have proven to be.
Ruphus
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Date Dec. 16 2012 17:19:14
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mezzo
Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr
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RE: American Freedom? (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
I could mount an excoriating attack on those who keep asking lame questions, but really it would not do anything because they don't research deeply or listen to others. This mode reminds me of the last presidential debates in which Romney in the first debate evaded giving any substantive answers by using the tactic of throwing out as many half true counter questions as he could. A kind of perversion of Socratic method where you use the method to produce subterfuge in the conversation instead of propel it forward. Like a rhetorical feedback loop. This is tactic is used by anti evolution fanatics when they debate sane people.
I'll say it once more because it does not seem to sink in; I think it is fashionable and simple minded to search the internet and find "causes" that outrage you. But to make snap decision blame whomever is at hand for something that outrages you, (or demand they explain it to you) about history is not smart, nor is it deep thinking.
After being accused of having a perverted leftist mind coz I agree with most Chomsky's thesis, now it seems that I'm also, if I get more or less Stephen' diatribe, a simple minded fanatic with nothing but anger inside me who cannot feel compassion. As far as the motivation of such qualification, again if I get it correctly, is coz I search on Internet for Informations and use it for my argumentation sake. So using fresh knowledge and asking for enlightment about it, is nothing but piteous.
If you don't have an encyclopedical knowledge, then you cannot come in and make a point. I don't have the legitimacy to act in such manner.
As for google, wikis and such documentations vs going to the library reading books then comparing his thesis with another one etc, I think this is a valid point for academical purpose or for serious intellectual presentation. It's not a requirement for topics on a flamenco forum IMO.
Otherwise if you haven't read 3 books, you couldn't make any points. You're just allowed to listen to the guys whom pretended to have read 3 books and therefore 'know' their stuff. Listen and shut your mouth coz what's you gonna say is not valid. The book you read is not in the official list btw coz the spectrum not fit, sorry. Thanks for coming, see ya!
Eh! wait a moment, here's the official listing of books. Be kind and choose the ones you gonna read from that list or you're not gonna sound convincing.
Despite my joke with writing lines, we aren't at school. There's no teacher to score your statements. What we do here is just discussing POINT OF VIEWS. At least is how I consider my posts here, expressing a POV. Of course mine is subjective and partial. Yours is equally biased, no doubt!!
Your introspectional methodology and mystical claims about how to properly apprehend History are not confering any superiority to your views.
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
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Date Dec. 16 2012 19:19:49
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what the heck!! Then I checked YT to watch for some documentaries...wow, I swear I couldn't stand up what was describe in there. I just turn it off coz it makes me sick! 
