Francisco Navarro guitars, what's next

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Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

Francisco Navarro guitars, what's next

I've given my personal opinion about the Navarro guitars months ago, and I really don't know the new cost but some very good news came to me today, by phone, from a long time player friend of mine who lives in Houston Texas... Elario Lozano.

He just told me that Francisco Navarro, the builder in Mexico, sold two of his guitars to Vicente Amigo during Vicente's recent concert tour there; a negra and a Blanca flamenco guitar.

Elario said, Vicente told Francisco that his Blanca guitar was every bit as good as his 1988 Reyes, which has been his concert guitar of choice for many years.

In fact, Vicente left his 1988 Reyes for Francisco to restore, since much of the finish was in bad shape. ....It sounds as if Vicente may have found a luthier who is very simpatico with his style of playing.

And this stands to reason; why would Vicente leave his prized possession with anyone without a replacement to do concerts with; much less outside his own country.

Vicente told Francisco that he would do a correct video of the guitar when he got back to Spain, and send it to him.

He also asked Francisco where he learned to build that model, and Francisco said, "I have a friend in San Antonio who showed me how to build it."

This lifted my spirit quite high, especially since I'm just getting over a bad case of the Flu. This was the best medicine of all.

I might also add that once this news gets out on video, Francisco will have more work than is the case right now, but not impossible at the moment.

Any interested party can contact Ron Hudson, the distributor, at Memorial Music in Houston Texas at...713-461-1060....

I think Ron's Belgium distributor-connection is La Sonanta guitars

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2012 2:08:36

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I think we'll have to wait and see. I've heard Amigo talk up a new luthier many times only to return to his Reyes. I think when he retires his Reyes, he'll replace with...another Reyes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2012 12:44:22

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Amigo has more than one Reyes.
José Luis Postigo told me some years ago that he had swapped one of Amigos Reyes for another Reyes because Amigo found it was to classical.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2012 13:19:51

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Yes, what you say makes sense. I was reporting what I was told about it. The 1988 Reyes was left for Francisco to refinish. And this was his guitar to give his concert with.

However, I was also told that Vicente didn't know about Francisco until right before the concert and he told his companions to try and find him to see if he had any guitars for sale.

Poncho brought two new guitars he had just finished, to see Vicente after the concert.

From what I was told, Vicente paid him full price for the guitars, and he mentioned to Poncho that instead of making a short video of their meet after the concert, that he would take the guitars to Spain where he could do a nice presentation of the guitar/s in possibly a concert or recital of some kind.

And I have seen GSI's presentation of Vicente playing a Spanish builder's guitar that they carry but I think this might be different ....we will see.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2012 14:29:49

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to TANúñez)

Guitar trading and selling will go on for a long time. But in this interim we have Navarro as a topic of interest. And I think he richly deserve it. Right now may be a good time to reserve your store order.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2012 14:40:43

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

The Reyes model of his I had a chance to play was more like a classical in terms of action than a flamenco and so was his student model and they had no room to go lower. I've heard other players mention this about his guitars as well as well as some worksmanship problems. The feeling I get is that they can be somewhat inconsistent. So before we go crowning him the next Conde of Mexico because of one visit by Vincente maybe he should focus on getting out good guitars everytime. I will also second Tom Nunez sentiment that VIncente tries and buys a lot of guitars only to continue playing his true Reyes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2012 15:10:58

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to tri7/5)

So far I haven't seen anything that I didn't like on a Navarro in terms of craftsmanship. I have always thought that his work could easily be sold for a little more. I'm glad to see he has kept his prices very reasonable.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2012 16:02:19

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyingsea

The feeling I get is that they can be somewhat inconsistent. So before we go crowning him the next Conde of Mexico because of one visit by Vicente maybe he should focus on getting out good guitars every-time.

I agree, as I had to wait over a year to see him stop adding a dome to his tops. Now, that he flattens his tops, the guitars are much better. And I've also told Elario about the bridges not being the same shape as the Reyes. He was supposed to have Francisco correct that, as well. But the cosmetics look good to me, otherwise.

That may be the reason Vicente trusted Poncho to do the finish work on his 1988 Reyes.

I just talked with Ron Hudson, the distributor for the Navarro guitars. He is going to send me a short video of Vicente playing the Navarro flamenco back stage. I'll look it over and see if there is anything I can add to this information.

However, as I've said, Vicente wanted to take the guitar's to Spain and give them a proper presentation with a professional video crew.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 24 2012 17:36:59

FlamencoD

Posts: 113
Joined: Apr. 7 2012
From: Portland, OR

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I have a '12 Navarro Concert Blanca and really enjoy it. Very nice sounding guitar with great workmanship. I can only imagine his top of the line guitars are pretty amazing, considering the Concert guitar is a great one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2012 2:15:00

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to FlamencoD)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FlamencoD

I have a '12 Navarro Concert Blanca and really enjoy it. Very nice sounding guitar with great workmanship. I can only imagine his top of the line guitars are pretty amazing, considering the Concert guitar is a great one.

My friend in Houston said that he would try and bring a new model with him for me to look at during the Christmas holidays coming up. Hopefully this will happen and I'll be able to check it out.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 27 2012 2:45:23

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to TANúñez)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez

So far I haven't seen anything that I didn't like on a Navarro in terms of craftsmanship. I have always thought that his work could easily be sold for a little more. I'm glad to see he has kept his prices very reasonable.

Here is a recent link to my website with Francisco Navarro and Vicente Amigo

This picture shows Poncho's construction of a recent guitar that Vicente bought from him.

http://tguitars.home.texas.net/francisco_navarro_and__vicente_amigo.htm

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2012 11:08:54

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

On a negative note, I really can't agree with Navarro copying the Reyes headstock for a number of reasons. In the end it will bite Poncho on the ass, because if Vicente ever actually uses this guitar on stage no one will ever know he made it .

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2012 16:05:31

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Sean)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

On a negative note, I really can't agree with Navarro copying the Reyes headstock for a number of reasons. In the end it will bite Poncho on the ass, because if Vicente ever actually uses this guitar on stage no one will ever know he made it .

I've heard this scenario many times but the truth is that there will always be those who choose to copy certain master builders guitars and hang their head all the way toward being a brilliant copyist.

I've chosen to follow this path because I like the challenge of getting into the masters genius and style of building.. And then there is the added bonus of name recognition for those who are really good at it.

But I understand what you say and this is not to dismiss it. However, there are different schools of thought about this issue, and just as you have your opinion, there are many who would disagree with you.

BTW, I have it on good report that there are certain factories in Spain that follow this same path but it is proprietary and kept with-in certain business circles for the guitar trade.

So, I think your so called negative post is not negative at all but merely an issue of personal taste.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2012 16:27:56

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

You're right Tom, it is personal taste which is why I didn't and won't bother listing the reasons; not everyone will ever agree on that matter anyway.

I do think it would have been of greater benefit to Navarro himself, to have put his own headstock on the guitars he sold to Vicente. If one day in the future, there is a youtube video of Vicente playing one of these guitars no one will think twice about it. If he used his own headstock, people would be a buzz wondering who the maker is and go out of their way to find out.
All respect for him making the Vicente club, it took skill and dedication.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2012 17:16:36

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Sean)

Experience tells me the opposite as the builder's art will catch up to him when advertising takes place.

There are so many avenues of advertising these days.... that Poncho's website with a video does the rest...... And then word of mouth takes over from there.

Why not give Vicente a copy of a guitar that he has associated with for many years?

This not only pays homage to the master builder but gives a more correct ideal for the guitar that was copied.

I'm sure you understand this.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 29 2012 19:35:12

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Manuel de la Chica's guitars were structurally exact copies of a Santos Hernandez that he had access to. However, even though Chica's headstock was the same shape as a Santos, Chica (as a signature) put a narrow strip of veneer between 2 book-matched halves of the front plates of his headstocks so his guitars could be easily distinguished from Santos'.
(There were 2 other differences: Chica's bridge was a lightweight African mahogany, and sometimes his tailblock was made of composition wood.)

Because even a good ear couldn't tell the difference, unscrupulous dealers replaced the Chica label with a Santos label and sold the guitars as SH, so Chica lost credit for some excellent guitars during his lifetime.

What effect do you think these developments had on the present-day (and past) value of Chica guitars? On Chica's name recognition?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 26 2012 14:18:44

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to a_arnold)

quote:

Because even a good ear couldn't tell the difference, unscrupulous dealers replaced the Chica label with a Santos label and sold the guitars as SH.

I don’t know where you got the idea that “even a good ear could not tell the difference between a Manuel de la Chica and a Santos.”

I have played three de la Chicas in my life, and one Santos, and they’re simply not in the same class. I found the de la Chicas to be just typically very good blancas, no better or worse than any name luthier’s blancas. They were not even close to several Manuel Reyes eighties that I have played.

I recently sold my 1970 Manuel Contreras blanca that I had performed on for thirty years. The buyer owned a Manuel de la Chica blanca and he brought it with him, along with an aficionado friend.

Before even trying out the Contreras they asked me to play the same music on both so they could hear properly and make a comparison. First I played the de la Chica. Then I played my Contreras. I hardly got out a few rasgueados before they started looking around at each other, as though to say “What’s this?’

It wasn’t even close. He bought the Contreras on the spot. And even a Contreras is not a Santos.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 26 2012 15:05:52

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic

quote:

Because even a good ear couldn't tell the difference, unscrupulous dealers replaced the Chica label with a Santos label and sold the guitars as SH.

I don’t know where you got the idea that “even a good ear could not tell the difference between a Manuel de la Chica and a Santos.”

It wasn’t even close. He bought the Contreras on the spot. And even a Contreras is not a Santos.

Ramon

I have to agree with you about the De La Chica, although I played a great one at RE Brune's shop a few years ago, in his collection.

There is really no guitar that sounds like a Santos. I've come very close but not to win any awards with it. However, I've learned something about top graduation recently, on my other guitars, that should put me even closer to the original sound.

And Navarro is building only top of the line right now, not lower priced instruments.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 26 2012 16:29:25

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Amigo has more than one Reyes.
José Luis Postigo told me some years ago that he had swapped one of Amigos Reyes for another Reyes because Amigo found it was to classical.

I would imagine that Vicente has more than one Reyes but the issue here is that Vicente left his 1988 Reyes, the one you see him record with on the majority of You-Tube videos, for Francisco to restore. It has a crack in the top which Navarro will have to remove the back to fix, etc with a possible refinish job.

Sr. Postigo played my first copy of a Reyes a couple of summers ago and was noted as mentioning it was a good guitar, and quite different from any other copy he had played.

Also, I was told that Vicente mentioned to Navarro that the new guitar was as good, perhaps a little better than his 1988. But this will remain to be seen when Amigo records with it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 26 2012 17:22:43

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Correction: I was recently told by Elario Lozano that Vicente's Reyes is a 1987 model and that Navarro told Elario that the fan brace pattern was the same as the 2003 model that he uses from the Guild of American Luthiers plan.

This was a surprise to me as Reyes has made so many slight alterations in his designs over the years.

Also, Vicente is due to return to Mexico for a concert in February 2013. At this time he will pick up his restored 1987 Reyes guitar from Navarro and deliver a professional video of him playing Navarro's guitars that he recently bought.

All of this is second hand information so I have to rely on the people who gave it to me, as being correct.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2013 10:18:46

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

And this stands to reason; why would Vicente leave his prized possession with anyone without a replacement to do concerts with; much less outside his own country

You are talking about the same guy who carelessly sat on his first Reyes on the couch while talking on the phone and destroyed the thing. Thats from an interview with Reyes himself who said he warned Vicente that he would not let him jump in line if anything happens to his guitar so he had better have two on hand.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2013 16:23:35

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Ricardo)

No kidding! That's a new one for me about Vicente. But I understand how that can happen since, years ago, a student bought one of mine and his Grand Mother accidentally sat on it and broke the top. Ouch!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2013 17:37:24

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Donn Pohren related a story about Diego del Gastor. A bunch of his friends got together and bought him a brand new Santos. They had a juerga and Diego played like a madman, got drunk, and later in a drunken stupor sat on his new Santos and destroyed it.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2013 19:05:06

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Guitars and couches seemd to just not merry well.
I try to keep them apart.

Just last Thursday I was informed by a friend of mine that he "after a happy season" on 30th of December sat on a vintage Ramirez, which he had finally embraced as most fitting of the bunch of guitars he owns.
And he described how the neck snapped up like a jackknife when the couch thing happened while corpus and top were smashed.

He said it made him squeal.

I obtained decent stands pretty late after deacdes. The main reason to finally get some was to avoid hazardous sofa rests.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2013 19:31:29

shaun

Posts: 176
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Edmonton, Canada

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

This is why I don't own a couch.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2013 20:22:10

Blair Russell

Posts: 51
Joined: Sep. 6 2012
From: Bristol

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I too have experienced the drunken friend + couch combination. This was my 5th guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2013 22:11:29

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Wow, how has this never happened to me?? I have drunken a-hole friends over every weekend...........
I recently changed to a Hercules wall mount because I bumped my stand and the guitar luckily fell into some folded laundry.

My condolences to all that have lost one.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2013 22:57:19

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Leñador)

Ow.
The guitarists in our cuadro (myself included) are in the habit of hooking our pegheads over the top rail of our ladderback chairs and resting the body of the guitar at an angle on the seat when we leave the stage. Makes a great guitar stand. Except for the obvious problem . . .
Tony

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2013 14:07:54

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Francisco Navarro guitars, what'... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Well, here we go again. I just heard from Chris Kamen that Vicente records with a 1988 Manuel Reyes guitar, so this must mean that the 1987 Reyes guitar he did a concert with in Mexico was a secondary instrument that he had Navarro restore for him.

Hopefully, we have some closure on this. And perhaps the guitar's design was nearly the same as the 2003 model Navarro currently builds. Anyway, there are multiple voices telling us what the real guitar in question is and this remains an issue to wonder about until the answer is clarified.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 13:47:04