Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Stiffness of guitar   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011
 

Stiffness of guitar 

Hello luthiers,

I have a question about the stiffness of my guitar. It's a palosanto guitar, built by a luthier from a village near Sevilla. Its nice and well built but the playability and sound change drastically.

what is bothering me is that it gets way too stiff often. then its very hard to play (It destroys my left hand and my right hand technique gets poor because of that) and the sound changes not to my liking. The sound changes to less harmonically and "bigger" more metallic and ugly sound. It really looses harmonics and aura, it looses its "sweetness".

My question is: because it's a nice guitar and was quite expensive, how can I change the stiffness of it? Can I putt something to suck out the humidity inside the guitar or go back to the luthier to scrape off some from the bracings or to sand the top to be less thick? He doesnt have any idea himself, so i have to look for a solution.
I have some serios theater concerts and a lot of practicing hours and in the studio. so i'm quite dependent of the guitar....
I also must add that he finished the guitar three months ago. But the label sais 2011. So it took him more than half a year to make it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2012 22:11:47
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

You might try and use a string with less tension but there is not much a builder or repairman can tell you without seeing the guitar.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2012 23:13:36
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

I am no expert but am curious. You say 'too stiff often', when does it change? Is it something to do with humidity, you seem to point to that. Wouldn't too much humidity make the guitar less stiff and with less sound? the opposite of what you say?
It will be interesting to hear what the luthiers have to say.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 23 2012 23:17:03
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

Your post is difficult to understand and maybe you use wrong words.
Stiffness or pulsation of a guitar is not really a variable factor. It might change a bit with changes of humidity, but we are talking very small percentages and very subtle changes.
Stiffness has to do with the thickness of the soundboard and bracing.
If the braces are to stiff, it can be done, but its difficult to do well and not all arms fit within the limits of the soundhole and its not easy to get your plane inside a guitar and you can easily end up making everything worse. Besides, you end up with more or less square braces and that was not the intention.
If the soundboard is to thick, theoretically it can be sanded down, but you always end up with a soundboard that is thinner where the braces are.
Stiffness/pulsation is very personal and often you have to look for a guitar or builder that suits your needs.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2012 7:36:59
 
Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

The problem is that I don't know how to describe the situation. I ve done some research in topics here and on internet and tried to describe the situation with the knowledge gathered.

I forgot to say that temperature is an important factor as well. If it gets warmer, the guitar will have more harmonics (seems like the strings have a longer vibration time) and it wil become reasonable to play.
Some times I warm up a cloth nearly as big as the soundboard and when it gets imposible to play again I put the guitar back in the case and put the cloth on the soundboard and close it. Sometimes this helps, but not always

I also don't think it depends on technique or whenever I play longer on the guitar, because I have a two hours technique schedule daily and many times the guitar is stiff from the first moment when I take it out of the case.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2012 8:32:52
 
Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

some else one has an idea?

thanks!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2012 20:25:52
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

The only thing I once came across to do with a 'stiff' guitar , meaning . a lot of string tension ... was to do with the 'string Break angle ' especially at the bridge end ,
As this angle increases so will the tension for the same note ...

There is a lot of stuff to wade through about this on the internet , and it may not be what you need , if so , then sorry ... Also the luthiers here will help clarify if it is relevant or not ...

However here is one thing to get you started ...
Even though this is not a flamenco guitar the theory still holds .. and I thought it was well explained ...

By the way my freinds guitar that was 'Stiff' was also as a result very loud .. by comparison,

http://www.frudua.com/guitar_strings_tension.htm

_____________________________

Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2012 21:22:18
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

Where are you located? In Sevilla?
The guitar sounds overbuilt for flamenco.
If you are in Sevilla take it to Barba or Postigo and have them help you search for a local builder with knowledge of what to do.

Or make the trip to Huelva and see Anders!

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2012 21:39:16
 
Dave K

Posts: 155
Joined: Mar. 29 2006
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

If you don't have a problem with tuning down a half or a whole note, you can make your guitar much less stiff to play...
Cheers,
Dave

_____________________________

Avise La Fin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2012 21:42:38
 
Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

quote:

Where are you located? In Sevilla?
The guitar sounds overbuilt for flamenco.
If you are in Sevilla take it to Barba or Postigo and have them help you search for a local builder with knowledge of what to do.

Or make the trip to Huelva and see Anders!


postigo is a guitarist and sells guitars and barba is a hideous person and overpriced. they both are actually.
i would really like to have time finally to go and meet Anders thou. that is a good idea

quote:


If you don't have a problem with tuning down a half or a whole note, you can make your guitar much less stiff to play...
Cheers,
Dave

that is not an option
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2012 8:29:33
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

How high is your stringspace between the top and the 6 th string at the bridge?
And the string space between the upper side of fret 12 and the underside of the 6 th string?

It is a possibillity that the bone is way too high so the tension is big.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2012 8:57:16
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2178
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

Caling Postigo and Barba hideous persons is a bit over the top. Can you support this statement?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2012 9:45:15
 
Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

postigo is a guitarist that has a shop and a tablao. both the shop and the tablao are wayyy too expencive. i am his neighbor
barba thinks he is a king. his guitar are nice, but they start at 7500... thats abuse of the name. and his reparations, that are being done by his sons are also too expensive.
i went many times to people like these, the only thing that they do is criticize your guitar like its a peace of crap, pull out a fabric guitar that theyve put their label in and pretend like thats the guitar of your dreams to try to sell it to you for 1800 euro.
i mean its hideous to go to these two because there are many other builders here
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2012 10:24:36
 
Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

quote:

How high is your stringspace between the top and the 6 th string at the bridge?
And the string space between the upper side of fret 12 and the underside of the 6 th string?

It is a possibillity that the bone is way too high so the tension is big.


it's not the action. that's ok and that's something you can get used to. but when the top is becomes so stiff that it feels like you have to move a big rock when you play and the strings sound like a clothesline, that i can not get used to...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2012 10:35:49
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

Well, the only thing that is left than is the post from Anders.
Get rid of the guitar if it is possible, and try to find one you like.
A guitar supposed to be an instrument, that you do not have to think or worry about, get used to it a bit, ok, but afterwards play it.

Veel succes!

Peter

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2012 10:49:19
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

quote:

i went many times to people like these, the only thing that they do is criticize your guitar like its a peace of crap, pull out a fabric guitar that theyve put their label in and pretend like thats the guitar of your dreams to try to sell it to you for 1800 euro.


uy uy... I understand what you say, BUT.... Spain is like that and its 100% Spanish culture and I dont think that Postigo or Barba are very different from others I have met.
Remember, that showing off and believing you are the king is totally accepted in Spain and it has its very possitive side as well. You dont get all this stupid small talk that we have in other cultures about people thinking they are something that according to others they are not etc.
Somehow, those of us comming from outside Spain, have to accept that here, things are like that. My personal attitude is that I try not to mix to much with this kind of energy and instead do things the way I believe is correct and which is on par with my upbringing and my culture. And then respect that Spain is Spain and I´m not Spanish. (although it can be difficult sometimes.)

I sometimes go to Sevilla. Maybe we could meet one day.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2012 11:07:30
 
Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

ok, that would be nice Anders. Let me know whenever you are here. I live in the center, you could come by for dinner
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2012 11:14:00
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rmn
If it gets warmer, the guitar will have more harmonics (seems like the strings have a longer vibration time) and it wil become reasonable to play.


I dont think its the guitar itself that suddenly "gets" more harmonics, and if so only to a low degree, but rather the air molecules move differently when at a higher temperature. After all, all the sound we hear is the movement of molecules in the air. The playability also increase with temperature, but there again im not sure how much of that is due a warmer guitar rather than to simply having warmer hands.

But its an interesting topic and still not fully uncovered as i see. Im not sure if this is something you wanted to address to too, but i am particularly interested in finding out what determines the tension of a string on a guitar. So far it always bothered me that the strings have all different tension and when choosing strings, i try to pick the ones with the lowest tension possible.

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2012 12:20:54
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

I recognise the problem and I have owned a couple of guitars (one blanca and one negra) that were like this. On some days they were very hard and unappealing to play. I felt that humidity was a factor. Both guitars were quite stiff to play at any time but they did produce very good sound when played hard. Both guitars were made in semi-factory production shops and I believe that in such places tops are often made too thick - perhaps because there is no time or expertise to consider how thick each top needs to be based on the properties of the wood and perhaps because a thicker guitar is more robust and less likely to be returned with a crack in it.

If you find yourself changing string brands and/or tensions in a desperate attempt to improve your guitar you need a new one. Guitars are for playing and not for worrying about. My advice is to move on and sell it to someone with heavy hands or to someone who likes the idea of owning a pretty flamenco guitar but will never bother to learn to play it.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2012 13:17:41
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

quote:

Hello luthiers,

I have a question about the stiffness of my guitar. It's a palosanto guitar, built by a luthier from a village near Sevilla. Its nice and well built but the playability and sound change drastically.

what is bothering me is that it gets way too stiff often. then its very hard to play (It destroys my left hand and my right hand technique gets poor because of that) and the sound changes not to my liking. The sound changes to less harmonically and "bigger" more metallic and ugly sound. It really looses harmonics and aura, it looses its "sweetness".

My question is: because it's a nice guitar and was quite expensive, how can I change the stiffness of it? Can I putt something to suck out the humidity inside the guitar or go back to the luthier to scrape off some from the bracings or to sand the top to be less thick? He doesnt have any idea himself, so i have to look for a solution.
I have some serios theater concerts and a lot of practicing hours and in the studio. so i'm quite dependent of the guitar....
I also must add that he finished the guitar three months ago. But the label sais 2011. So it took him more than half a year to make it.


RMN,

You shouldn't have to make ANY modifications to a new guitar. If you do not like it, you should have the right to return or exchange it. Was this guitar built for you or did you just buy it? either way, do not spend any money or waste time trying to get a new guitar to play right. The way you like it. Don't waste anymore of your time and stress over this. Return it and find something that you like.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2012 13:32:38
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to RobJe

I have two Pedro De Miguels, Blanca and Negra. They are EXACTLY like this.
They sound great when played hard, and on some days are just wonderfull.
Other days you have to work harder. They never sound bad, just require
more work. I still like them though. I have a Carillo as well, which is much
more supple and easy to play all the time. However it lacks a certain sound
characteristic that the PDM's have ... They are all definetly affected by humidity.
Which of course they should, because they are all made of wood.

Regards,
Jeff

quote:

I recognise the problem and I have owned a couple of guitars (one blanca and one negra) that were like this. On some days they were very hard and unappealing to play. I felt that humidity was a factor. Both guitars were quite stiff to play at any time but they did produce very good sound when played hard. Both guitars were made in semi-factory production shops and I believe that in such places tops are often made too thick - perhaps because there is no time or expertise to consider how thick each top needs to be based on the properties of the wood and perhaps because a thicker guitar is more robust and less likely to be returned with a crack in it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2012 16:04:17
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

I think you should strive to meet Anders for an in person evaluation of the guitar. It is too difficult to address this problem abstractly without actually laying hands on the guitar.
In the end this may not be your guitar. You guitar should be more reliable than this.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2012 20:56:48
 
Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

quote:

RMN,

You shouldn't have to make ANY modifications to a new guitar. If you do not like it, you should have the right to return or exchange it. Was this guitar built for you or did you just buy it? either way, do not spend any money or waste time trying to get a new guitar to play right. The way you like it. Don't waste anymore of your time and stress over this. Return it and find something that you like.

thanks for the reply. i wish I could, the situation is a bit more complicated because the guitar was made for me in the end

quote:


I have two Pedro De Miguels, Blanca and Negra. They are EXACTLY like this.
They sound great when played hard, and on some days are just wonderfull.
Other days you have to work harder. They never sound bad, just require
more work. I still like them though. I have a Carillo as well, which is much
more supple and easy to play all the time. However it lacks a certain sound
characteristic that the PDM's have ... They are all definetly affected by humidity.
Which of course they should, because they are all made of wood.

Regards,
Jeff

ah thats very nice to hear! i thought I was the only one who is noticing this kind of issue. Well I mean mine never sounds bad either, but its just that with certain stuff you just cant work harder and there will be less sound coming out because there is so much tention.
And mine as well, when it has a good day, man it plays and sounds awsome. thats why I want to look for a solution, because its a good guitar. a piano, like they say here.

quote:


I think you should strive to meet Anders for an in person evaluation of the guitar. It is too difficult to address this problem abstractly without actually laying hands on the guitar.
In the end this may not be your guitar. You guitar should be more reliable than this.

Ok, there you have a good point.
Indeed about the reliability. i get very nervous when i have a recording session or an important concert with press and filmcameras all around.
Besides that I just love a guitar that plays good and is nor too loose nor very tense. To go back to Barba, he has a very good balance always in that in his guitars.

Ojala that one day I will find a guitar like that or find a solution for this one. because it was nearly 3k
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2012 22:41:31
 
Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rmn
If it gets warmer, the guitar will have more harmonics (seems like the strings have a longer vibration time) and it wil become reasonable to play.


I dont think its the guitar itself that suddenly "gets" more harmonics, and if so only to a low degree, but rather the air molecules move differently when at a higher temperature. After all, all the sound we hear is the movement of molecules in the air. The playability also increase with temperature, but there again im not sure how much of that is due a warmer guitar rather than to simply having warmer hands.

But its an interesting topic and still not fully uncovered as i see. Im not sure if this is something you wanted to address to too, but i am particularly interested in finding out what determines the tension of a string on a guitar. So far it always bothered me that the strings have all different tension and when choosing strings, i try to pick the ones with the lowest tension possible.


thanks for that reply, haven't seen it yet.
These questions I've already asked myself many times. And many times I thought it was my own pulsation of the hands or about the air molecules and movement of sound as a wave. But it really keeps coming to me that I think that it has got to do with the soundboard: either at higher humidity it gets more volume and that influences the tension on the strings, either the temperature makes the molecules of the wood of the soundboard more "loose" so that the whole top gets loose as well and that will influence the tension on the strings (less tension) and the sound (more harmonics)

I also feel it very clearly when playing, when the tension is high its so crappy to play...

For that, to prove to myself that I'm not crazy I want to buy a newton meter, a hygrometer, thermometer and keep a logbook.
I just don't know if there is a method and an instrument (newton meter) for measuring the tension on the strings of the guitar. and wether I should measure the humidity and temperature inside the guitar or outside it
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2012 10:12:51
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

just trust your feeling, it is way more sensitive than an istrument.

A guitar, especially a new built one is moving around a bit.
You are perhaps very sensitive for that, maybe you are more sensitive for other things too.

When I used to get a new guitar in the past, i allways had the first year a love - hate relationship with it.

When the sound is ok, I get picky on other things, playability, is the sound louder on this fret than the other? Is the bass more this, do I hear a side sound. Comparing with other guitars....etc.....etc. Sometimes the sound just drops dead, next day it is ok again...Maybe a higher or a lower bone, other strings.....
It drived me sometimes mad.

Than I learned to accept the guitar as it is, do not think about it anymore.
Also I learned, that playability comes first, than sound. But that is maybe only personal.....

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2012 10:42:39
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

Ok, you say that the guitar plays the best and is loose when its pretty high humidity.

That makes me think that there´s a good chance that this guitar was built under pretty high humidity, because thats when it relaxes. Does your builder work in a humidity controled environment? (few Spanish builders do)
It has two problems. Where you live, its pretty dry at least 6 - 8month a year.
Guitars built under high humidity are fragile and cracks easily when it gets dry. Be carefull with it and keep it humidified.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2012 10:44:03
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

quote:

For that, to prove to myself that I'm not crazy I want to buy a newton meter, a hygrometer, thermometer and keep a logbook.
I just don't know if there is a method and an instrument (newton meter) for measuring the tension on the strings of the guitar. and wether I should measure the humidity and temperature inside the guitar or outside it


Good lord! You should not have to do that with what is supposed to be the baby you had built for you. You should just sell the guitar and get another one. It does not mean it is a poor guitar, it's just not for you.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2012 10:47:07
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

quote:

You should just sell the guitar and get another one.


Reality is that Ramón is in Sevilla, Andalucia, Spain. Here we have a VERY serious economical crisis. And selling things means 50% or more loss..... Youth unemployment in Andalucia is around 65% these days.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2012 13:33:00
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

quote:

thanks for the reply. i wish I could, the situation is a bit more complicated because the guitar was made for me in the end


Rmn, disregard my comments. I didn't stop to think that you are in Europe and often times, business is conducted differently in the US. Here is the US. many builders offer trial periods or some type of return/exchange policy. That may not be an option for you there.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2012 17:18:05
 
kintla

 

Posts: 9
Joined: Dec. 4 2011
 

RE: Stiffness of guitar (in reply to Rmn

I really learned some things. At first I thought, that's "crazy" but what Gerundino63 said on his last message makes a lot of sense. And go see Anders, heck you might even find a guitar you like!
Sherman (been gone for a while)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2012 1:25:44
Page:   [1] 2    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.109375 secs.