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Rafael Marín, the guitarist and theorist who never was (or so some wished)
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dformell
Posts: 126
Joined: Nov. 7 2010
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 RE: Rafael Marín, the guitarist and... (in reply to dformell)
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Hello Everybody,
Ramon Montoya respected and actually used some of the variations from Marin's book. There's an earlier post in this section titled, The Tremolo Technique: A Historical Reference. Within that post is an excerpt from Marin's book with various right hand techniques. Among those techniques are the 5 & 6 note tremolos, Anyone who claims those techniques to be watered down must be a phenomenal player indeed. And, while we're at it, The music of Sabicas, Manolo Sanlucar, Juan Martin, Juan Serrano,Ioannis Anastassaki, etc. is published by Mel Bay. The aforementioned players are anything but watered down. One final observation is in order; the aforementioned players are well known. Outside of this forum does anyone know who Ricardo Marlow is?
Regards,
Dan
P.S.
Rafael Marin's book is being translated into English along with the scans being edited. When the work is finished the book will be posted on scribd for free viewing and download.
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Date Oct. 29 2012 2:31:30
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dformell
Posts: 126
Joined: Nov. 7 2010
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RE: Rafael Marín, the guitarist and... (in reply to dformell)
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Why Ioannis Anastassakis? Because he published the following books through Mel Bay:
The Art of the Rasqueado
The art of the Tremolo
Flamenco Guitar Journals
Mr. Anastassakis is not as well known as some other players but he's made a valuable contribution to the flamenco guitar through the books he's written. What's impressive about him is that he's good at both nylon and electric guitar styles. It's interesting to note that a Greek - a race with a rich scholarly tradition - categorized 2 fundamental flamenco guitar techniques.
Very few players are as good as Sabicas, Manolo Sanlucar, Juan Martin and Juan Serrano. However Mr. Anastassakis did study with Juan Serrano. The pieces in his book, Flamenco Guitar Journals contain falsetas from Sabicas, Manolo Sanlucar, Juan Martin and Juan Serrano. Playing flamenco guitar, or any other style for that matter, is not about being the best, getting all the attention etc. it's about what one contributes to the art form. O.k. so you can play Gitaneria Arabesca but what have you done to enrich the flamenco guitar? It doesn't have to be a big contribution, perhaps you invented a rasqueado pattern and shared it with the guitar community. That's worth far more to flamenco than someone playing a bunch of 16th notes.
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Date Oct. 29 2012 5:37:39
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Rafael Marín, the guitarist and... (in reply to dformell)
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quote:
Ramon Montoya respected and actually used some of the variations from Marin's book.
I guess anything is possible, but my gut feeling is that is doubtful. I had heard of this Marin book for years and was so excited to finally get a look at the scores, and was greatly disappointed. You can't compare anything in that book to say the scores of Montoya done by Faucher. And of course we don't have video, but considering how flamenco has evloved and video footage available of players as early as sabicas, Marchena, Pepe Martinez (who worked with Montoya briefly and followed his style), I would hazard a guess that the work of Faucher interms of authenticity and accuracy, is the best you can get. No method book I have ever seen comes close to his work.
I admit I am not a fan of his under the table business approach over the years, and have found minor mistakes, but for any serious student looking at scores (it is well known of course the learning method traditionally flamenco has been most successful with uses no scores at all), you can't do better than his collections. The small verbal descriptions show super attention to detail and reveal the transcriber to be extremely knowledgeable of the technique and tradition. The compas mistakes of Montoya for example are addressed specifically and directly and dealt with in logical ways. Same deal for more modern players.
IN any case my main concern was not the marin method as applies to guitar students, but rather the point the article was making that flamenco historians need to figure in his verbal anecdotes and such. I think that that might be a little strong considering what the music shows...that's just me. For sure, as a historical vintage piece it is great to take a glance at and great that its in pdf or whatever and getting translated etc. In other words, a very interesting collectors piece, but for serious students or historical investigators, there are better things to look at.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Oct. 29 2012 18:55:01
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dformell
Posts: 126
Joined: Nov. 7 2010
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RE: Rafael Marín, the guitarist and... (in reply to dformell)
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Hi Guys,
A big apology is in order, I'm sorry for some of the harsh and insensitive comments I made earlier, in particular:
Mr. Kliman, sorry for spelling your name wrong, it was an honest mistake; I have this problem with mixing up the i's & l's on a keyboard. It won't happen again. And the groveling, can't forget the groveling.
Ramzi, I wasn't implying that you don't contribute, sorry if it came of that way.
You are a great guitar player, you sharing your videos is enough of a contribution.
Ricardo, Sorry about the harsh comment, it was insensitive and totally unnecessary.
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Date Oct. 30 2012 7:59:46
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dformell
Posts: 126
Joined: Nov. 7 2010
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RE: Rafael Marín, the guitarist and... (in reply to dformell)
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Below is Richard Brune's email to Ricardo. Mr. Brune is quite the guitar historian. The email is rather long so grab a cup of coffee or whatever your vice is and enjoy the read.
Hi Ricardo,
I saw your comments re the Marin method you posted in response to dformell's comments on the foro flamenco, and thought I'd pass along a few comments. I agree that his book is aimed at amateurs, much as was the Papas and many other popular "play flamenco in 3 easy steps" kind of books, but you have to look at it from the standpoint of the times. The linked article dformell referenced by a Sevillano named Garcia and translated by someone else exhibits much of the erroneous assumptions common to authors who grew up in the Segovia era, referencing "classical" and "flamenco" guitar as two separate disciplines, and by assumption, two different instruments, and assuming this has always been the case. Even a scholar such as Jose Romanillos fell into this trap, referencing the two in his book without any actual documentation to assert this was how Torres and his contemporaries actually conceptualized the instrument. Marin's own words support the thesis that the Torres model was created for the gypsy flamenco marketplace:
"I can faithfully say that the guitar is truly Spanish, and whilst it can be used to perform marvels of serious music, it was not made for this purpose. The guitar was made for regional Spanish airs, and above all for the Andalusian airs, for which worldly instrument can imitate the strumming used in Soleares, Malagueñas and even in Aragon's traditional Jota Aragonesa?" Notice he only says "the guitar" without any kind of secondary division or classification?
In fact there is not one shred of evidence that the term "classical guitar" was ever used in Marin's day in the context in which Garcia writes. Players of Marin's era commonly mixed their programs with flamenco, folkloric and written compositional music. One need only look at historical programs of Arcas, Romero, Gimenez Manjon, and even into the current era, Vicente Gomez, and even the Romeros. This was popular with audiences. Segovia wanted to break away from anything to do with flamenco. It was common when he was getting started back in the '20's and 30's to bill guitarists as "Spanish" guitarists. He along with Vladimir Bobri and the New York Society for the Classical Guitar began using the term "classical guitar" post WW II to distinguish himself from these others who he loathed because they included flamenco in their programs, which is when this separate concept began to take root, and this was actively promoted by Segovia in order to deflect his followers from having anything to do with flamenco. I think this was because Segovia was illegitimate and had been outed by El Tenazas at a juerga during the 1922 Cante Jondo contest in Granada where he was one of the judges, and where he also played flamenco. El Tenazas had been a servant for his family when he was born and knew of the scandal which in Segovia's era was a potential social and career killer. From that day, Segovia totally eschewed anything to do with flamenco. Because he only used rosewood bodied guitars, by extension, these came to be called "classical" guitars.
Leading up to the publication of Marin's method the vast majority of flamencos were from multi generational gypsy clans long associated with the art, with a few notable exceptions, such as Don Antonio Chacon, Silverio Franconetti (who was 1/2 gypsy) and a few others. None of these gypsy clans needed anything like Marin's method to guide them in the art, their knowledge was forged on the anvil of gypsy society. Clearly it was aimed at those NOT born into the art, but for whom the mysteries were appealing and they were curious to learn more. The hijacking of the flamenco art by Manuel de Falla, Miguel de Unomuno Segovia, and other non-gypsies in 1922 who set themselves up as "experts" and guardians of the pure in their search for the "best" non-professional singer of Cante Jondo shows just how far the secrets of flamenco flowed into Gacho society, and how popular it had become beyond the gypsy home and local tablao.
The importance of the Marin method is that it provides a rare window into the popularization of flamenco among non-gypsies at this period, and it also documents the techniques in the exercises illustrated, which even by classical guitar standards today, are advanced, even if his musical examples are not. For instance, it has long been declared by University trained "musicologists" that flamenco players learned of the tremolo through classical players such as Miguel Llobet who was friends with Ramon Montoya, Miguel Borrull and others. As you know, the classical tremolo is a Pami pattern. Marin's method totally dispels this, illustrating the modern piami and other tremolo techniques just to cite this one example. So clearly, this did not come from flamencos "borrowing" techniques from the "classical" (I prefer the term "literate") players of the day. Miguel Llobet was barely 20 when Marin's method appeared, and was just getting started, having been a protoge of Tarrega, who as far as I know never used a 5 note tremolo in any of his music. So the lineage of the tremolo coming to flamenco via Llobet is totally bogus.
Finally, it is also worth mentioning that the guitar Marin is playing has pegs and what appears to be a dark rosewood body, what many modern flamencos refer to as a negra. If you read my article on the "Cultural Origins of the Modern Guitar" which dformell has also posted on the foro, you will see that there was no distinction in Torres', or even Marin's day, and one is just as likely to find historical players of all strips using a dark wood body as well as a blond bodied instrument, with or without pegs. So rather than dismiss the Marin method as simplistic, I would suggest viewing it in the historical context and appreciating the hidden documentation it contains. I don't have dformell's email address, our old email which had it was hacked and stolen, so if you could pass this along to him, that would be appreciated, but if not , no problem. Hope all's well with you!
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Date Oct. 30 2012 8:06:07
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I mean, I know him, but I'm not sure many others here or elsewhere do. He's doing mostly this nowadays, it seems... 
