RE: Another "Artist Model" Adam Del Monte Model

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gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

2* Luthier and artist get together and make a deal. Luthier uses the name, Artist gets a guitar and both expect to earn some money.

so.....the MONEY wins! :-)

ciao,
giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2012 15:17:59

FlamencoD

Posts: 113
Joined: Apr. 7 2012
From: Portland, OR

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to gbv1158)

Noone has commented on the sound. It sounds great to me, really flamenco and very clear.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2012 20:50:10

britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=135815&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=pulsation&tmode=&smode=&s=#135815

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Thanks Steven. Very interesting discussion(s).

I'm now less confused. But still very curious.

I guess that's why the flamenco guitar is such a fascinating instrument.

Each one has a life and character of its own. . . .

(I'll continue to research a bit more. . . )

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2012 22:14:27

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to gbv1158)

for flamenco guitars, if I see a guitarist promoting a luthier, I'll be excited.
if a guitarist has a sig model, i'll go 'hmmmmmmmmmm'.

in the electric guitar world, it's different, i'll be interested in the a signature model, because of the many different way you can change on an electric guitar.
On a flamenco guitar, you can't change the way the neck is attached, the pick ups, the shape, material (to a lesser extend).

I have to say 7500 is def too ex for a unknown flamenco builder, even if he builds good steel string or other mariachi instrument. isn't that arron green, de voe, canin, jose romero, ricardo sanchis territory?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 5 2012 22:40:48

rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to rogeliocan)

quote:

quote:

He talks about the tension or stiffness of the guitar, which affects the feel when you play. Its extremely important to get it right. And its also personal. Some want a stiffer guitar than others.

Thanks for the answer. And searching on stiffness I see that braces, and wood are things that affect it. I will read up on it.

So of all three words, tension, stiffness, and pulsation, stiffness is the one that is the quickest for me to connect and relate too.

I imagine this would probably be an indicator of how stiff a guitar is. I imagine a stiff guitar has less flex than this one:
http://www.granadaexpert.com/johnray/how-flexible-is-too-much/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 6 2012 12:19:56

britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to britguy)

quote:

Thanks Steven.

H M M M . I'm embarrassed!

Sorry Simon. I sometimes get 'escribano' mixed up with ' estabanana'.

These things happen a lot at my age.

The combined effects of many full years, ( and many empty carafons. . . )

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2012 12:51:51

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

Unfortunately the currency in which the guitars are sold is not love for flamenco guitars.

Yes, unfortunately not! (I was joking in my earlier post)
But I do think that charging money and having passion for one's art need not be mutually exclusive.

Aha you got me there. The second statement is actually interesting and i have to think about it first. Intuitively i would say that valueing art is not done by money but through listening, enjoyment, creating. The reason why there is money at all in art, or anywhere else for that matter, is because its neccessary. In any case i would say that setting up a series of guitars for sale is a business and not derived from the passion of building "A" great flamenco guitar.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2012 10:25:34

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

The reason why there is money at all in art, or anywhere else for that matter, is because its neccessary.

this is correct!
.........up to the point where the money does not become the main reason in art, to the point that the art disappears to make room for "commodity" whose quality will not match never a work of art!. As long as there will be artisans (luthiers in our case) that apply to their work with a "passion" NOT greater than the love of money, the art will be saved! and we might be lucky enough to have in our hands one of their beautiful flamenco guitars!

:-)
ciao
giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2012 12:47:23

Don Dionisio

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to gbv1158)

From what I can tell, Mr. Delgado is an artisan and makes the guitars by hand.
I asked Adam Del Monte if he uses these guitars in concert and he responded in the
affirmative. For me, and perhaps I'm more naive than most, I look at
this as an opportunity to consider a guitar that has been developed
in conjunction with a great player and a up and coming luthier.
Mr. del Monte's description of what he looks for in a guitar was helpful.
I also thought the guitars sounded quite good.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2012 13:23:33

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to Don Dionisio)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Dionisio

I also thought the guitars sounded quite good.

but is it worth 7500, especially when compared to other flamenco guitars you can get for 7500?

cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2012 23:42:30

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to gbv1158)

quote:

but is it worth 7500, especially when compared to other flamenco guitars you can get for 7500?

Is it possible to find persons capable of answering that? Wont it always be something that is based on a personal taste or playing style?

I consider myself a good luthier or guitarmaker, but I 100% accept and understand that some players will prefer another makers guitars and that its totally impossible to make "the best" guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2012 8:32:20

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to gbv1158)

quote:

Is it possible to find persons capable of answering that? Wont it always be something that is based on a personal taste or playing style?

Amen

Let's not forget that his shop is in LA and we have a long and proud tradition of paying twice as much for the same sh*t as everyone else .........supply and demand I suppose..........

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2012 14:57:56

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Is it possible to find persons capable of answering that? Wont it always be something that is based on a personal taste or playing style?

Definately. It a totally answerable question, I'm not asking whether it's better, I'm asking whether it's worth the money compared to other guitars in the price range, meaning whether it's on par with it.
Sticking an artist name on a (in this example) relabeled guitar eg yamaha/student navarro/HSL/"insert guitar name here" and selling it for 7500 = it's NOT worth the money.

I think there is definately a 'worth it or not' aspect on every guitar.
There's a Salvator Castillo guitar on sale in sydney.. for AU7000/US7400-ish. Is the sound and playability equal to a (off the top of my mind for about 7000) Aaron Green?
maybe? if it worth it? NO. Because I can get other guitars (which maybe better or at least equal) or other Castillo for a fraction of that price (eg Shawn sold his guitar for 1700)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2012 22:30:07

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to gbv1158)

i think the difference between what del monte and the luthier are doing compared to what ramirez and segovia did is that the artist is getting a slice of the pie--at least it is being made public with the signature on the label (and, most likely, a cut in the action). to be sure, in the old days the guitarist did not get his name on the label but probably a free guitar or two. one hears stories about how this or that flamenco hung out in the shop of esteso and we would bet the flamencos told esteso or the conde boys what he would like or what he liked and those comments were then incorporated. jose ramirez tells in his book how he picked segovia's brain and how segovia told ramirez what he wanted and then those comments were incorporated.

in a weird way jim sherry sort of started this trend when he slapped the segovia label in those ramirez guitars as he was acknowledging the input segovia contributed to what became a guitar built to satisfy segovia. the difference is jim "forgot" to pay either segovia or ramirez--and did the deed without permission from the two.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2012 3:33:51

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to keith)

quote:

i think the difference between what del monte and the luthier are doing compared to what ramirez and segovia did is that the artist is getting a slice of the pie--at least it is being made public with the signature on the label (....)

I have nothing against a good and famous guitarist collaborates with a good liuthier to develop a good guitar, this can only be an useful thing at all!.
The point is when it becomes a real advertising. Maybe it also helps to make a right choice, however, to think that this advertising certifies the superiority of certain guitars than others and therefore justifies their high price, only serves to harm those luthiers who by personal choice or objective conditions do not have famous sponsor. And this is all the more serious by the fact that basically the goal of ads is to make money on a product and not the opposite.

:-)
ciao
giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2012 7:03:00

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to gbv1158)

a lot of luthiers use famous guitarists as a form of advertising. some post pictures on their website of the famous guitarist playing the guitar, some use actual testimonies, some use collaborations, some actually endorse the guitars and some use forums to spread the word. nothing wrong with this as ultimately the guitars have to prove themselves.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2012 10:42:55

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

but is it worth 7500, especially when compared to other flamenco guitars you can get for 7500?

no.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2012 13:57:07

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to gbv1158)

Being that the US is a free market economy things are worth what people are willing to pay for them and not dictated by any governing body.

Candelas has a retail store and a shop in Los Angeles, the kind of overhead involved with that kind of operation is probably a lot more then many people not from here can imagine. Being that they're running a business, that overhead is built into their products. "Well leave Los Angeles and don't have a retail shop then" some might say. Why? They've been in that for about as long as I've been alive and appear to be doing well. Even though we live in the age of the internet and everything can be ordered online and shipped there are still many people who want to walk in to a place try it and buy it, guitars to shoes. If they were building these guitars out of their garage in "nowhere" Arkansas I'm sure they would be a 1/3 the price. But they're not, they're in one of the most expensive cities in the world and many people who live here can afford comfortably the unusually high standard of living we have. These same people don't mind paying top dollar for their guitar to have the luxury and peace of mind knowing the person that built it is around the corner. Remember, were loaded with spoiled wealthy people who will throw 10K around on a whim. Bottom line is the instrument is on back order so people are buying them, and that makes them worth it, even if nobody outside of LA ever buys one.

That being said, would I pay $7,500 for one? Probably not but I'm only one person.
Sorry for the rant, it's just a different world out here and when people get a peek without the whole picture it can appear pretty distorted.

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2012 14:27:16

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to HolyEvil)

quote:

Definately. It a totally answerable question, I'm not asking whether it's better, I'm asking whether it's worth the money compared to other guitars in the price range, meaning whether it's on par with it.

I dont agree. Its just a money game, and money is VERY far from being fair. Besides its totally linked to policy which is also VERY far from being fair.

Are my guitars worth 3000,-€? Yes, because I can sell them. Are they worth 4000,-€? Well, I dont know, because I havent tried selling them at that price. (but it would be nice for me.

)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 14 2012 7:39:54

britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Are they worth 4000,-€? Well, I dont know, because I havent tried selling them at that price. (but it would be nice for me. )

Well, Anders; now's your chance. Hook up with a "name" tocaor, and create an "artist model" and sell for whatever price you think is appropriate?

(Seems to be the thing to do these days. . .)

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2012 13:42:56

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to gbv1158)

Pedro Sierra!! That'd be awesome! The "Pedro Sierra model" by Ander Eliason.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2012 13:49:45

britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Pedro Sierra!!

Interesting choice!

Coincidentally, a young player I took a few lessons from recently was a student with Pedro Sierra for a year at the Heeren Academy in Sevilla. (He was a pretty damn good tocaor, and I'm sorry he moved away.)

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2012 14:08:42

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to britguy)

I beat he was great, a year in Sevilla with Pedra Sierra, I'm pretty jealous.
He didn't happen to move to LA did he?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2012 17:09:55

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Pedro Sierra!! That'd be awesome!

I've seen guitars with Pedro Sierra's own label made by Sanchis

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2012 21:32:07

ddk

Posts: 155
Joined: Jan. 10 2006
From: California

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to HolyEvil)

I think this is ridiculous! Is Adam pretending to be on the same level as Tomatitio or Paco? This is a joke... Oh well, maybe he'll sell a few. They say there's a fool born every minute.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2012 21:54:33

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to gbv1158)

quote:

I've seen guitars with Pedro Sierra's own label made by Sanchis

Damn!

quote:

I think this is ridiculous! Is Adam pretending to be on the same level as Tomatitio or Paco? This is a joke...

I don't think he is, I'm sure he'd be the first to tell you. Paco and Tomatito are not the only ones with signature guitars.........also, it's not a Conde signature it's a little known guitar company with a SLIGHTLY more known player.........

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2012 22:27:19

tomasd

Posts: 3
Joined: Nov. 6 2012

RE: Another "Artist Model"... (in reply to gbv1158)

Hello. Thanks to my friends and clients for letting me know about this forum. I just wanted to take a little time to answer some questions in regards to the Adam del Monte model.
I have worked with many artists over the years and over the last five years I have really been focusing on flamenco. I have restored some amazing collectable guitars and studied weight,materials and tone. I starting taking my guitars to some of the guitar shows and that is where I met Adam. He first played my guitars at the last La Guitarra festival. He was impressed by the tone I was getting but was very critical about scale and string tension. I returned to my shop and made some adjustments. I then decided to display at the Vicente Amigo concert this year. I met with Vicente and he was also very pleased with the tone and character of my guitars. I also noticed I recieved a lot of great feedback from those who have played my guitars in the past. They said they could hear and feel an improvement. I know this was from the information Adam gave me. The very next week Adam called me and said he was looking for a new flamenco guitar and he wanted to get together and show me two De la Chicas he ownes. We bagan to study these guitars and I took all the qualities he loved and attempted to incorporate them on my new design. Without going into detail it worked. Adam picked out a guitar. He told me that if I was willing to make this model with his specs he would recommend them to his students. I told him what I would charge for the guitar and he said thats fine but that most peolpe do not have that kind of money. I told him I would make a model with french polish same materials but a more simple design. He said that if the the client wanted him to break in the guitar he would and if he approved of the guitar he would sign the back of the headstock. I thought that was awesome! So the Adam del Monte model was born. We do not have any plans at this time to have labels reprinted but I did feel that it was important to give this collaboration some type of promotion. Adam has given me countless hours of his knowledge that has improved my guitars. I do want to say that I feel very fortunate to have made this now friendship with Adam. I also should include Pepe Romero. He has been a long time family friend since the 1950's. He has opened his home to me every time I have any questions or new designs I want some feedback on.
I want to make the best guitars with a lot of value and I can't do it alone. If anyone has any input I would love some feedback. I will do my best.

Thank you,
Tomas

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2012 16:39:15