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RE: Why orchestra?
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estebanana
Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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 RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)
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Sorry my posts are long Anders. I'm clearly some type of frustrated writer, probably a latent art critic or expert on the horse races who is making guitars too often to have time to write.
When I was in school and for much a time after I felt very insecure about writing even though I had a lot to say. I had family members who were writers said some pretty biting things about my writing which did not help either, then in grad school my professor advisor said my thesis was a train wreck. He in fact, is a terrible writer. Eventually by writing about guitar making on various forums I gained about more skill by trying my best to write in detail and express clear ideas. Those who said my writing was terrible recanted and said it was not quite terrible now, but upgraded from train wreck to fender bender.
So now that I'm out of the woods and not totaling cars, boats, aircraft and trains with my syntax and punctuation, I feel compelled to torture you and others with my long posts. I have an audience, albeit one strapped to the iron rails and ties of the luthery section of this foro. I still have more to say, and I am passive aggressively taking out my frustration on other foro member instead of writing long crazy letters to family members and former professors.
Please accept my apologies for my compulsive behavior, errant mind and propensity to wear a black felt villain hat and rope unsuspecting foroists to train tracks.
Cheers!
Stephen
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Sep. 20 2012 19:22:06
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Adam
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
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RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to KMMI77)
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quote:
I thought there WAS some kind of artistic reason behind it which i was missing, other than that "people like it". Because people like all kinds of **** too. Doesnt make it any valuable.
But coming up with words to wrap around something doesn't make it valuable either. Everyone likes what they like. You could break down why you like something into some component reasons - "I like flamenco because it's direct," for example - but it's not an exercise I like to do, because it's clearly missing out on a lot of the reasons I like something. For example, if I say I like flamenco because it's direct, does that mean I like all direct music? Does that mean I dislike all non-direct music (or even all non-direct flamenco)? Certainly not. Musical tastes are a much more complicated beast than that.
One thing I have noticed is that, like Munin, most (or all) of the orchestra + flamenco stuff I like is the stuff that's composed to have an orchestra included. For example, Tomatito's orchestral album, where he has an orchestra with his older pieces, just sounds like the orchestra is tacked on, not too exciting.
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Date Sep. 21 2012 15:46:19
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Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
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RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
fok music - music that originates in traditional popular culture or that is written in such a style. Folk music is typically of unknown authorship and is transmitted orally from generation to generation.
By that definition Indian classical music, Persian classical music, Greek music, Chinese music, Gamelan, large extents of Western classical music would all be folk music.
And the other problem with that definition is that in folk idioms many times the author is well known.
I guess either everything is folk music or there needs to be multiple definitions. Or folk music is like porn, I know it when I hear it.
Maybe a better way to call these folk forms is vernacular music. I always have drawn the line at a formally organized professionally performed music that is played on stage for it's own sake by a group pd artists who are specialists. Flamenco falls into that category and its been that way at least since the 19th century.
Previously you claimed "Folks musics have structures of course, but remain outside greater structures, formal structures and tend to change with time and region to a point of being unique to a particular geography or culture"....
To me this sounds very much like the roods of flamenco. All styles started as local specialties before they found a bigger audience. Up to today many local players restrict to the locally known styles only and have far less (or no) knowledge of many of the other styles. Can you tell me which % of the Spanish citizens appreciate and understand flamenco? In my opinion geography and (sub)culture are still very much entangled with flamenco.
"I always have drawn the line at a formally organized professionally performed music that is played on stage for it's own sake by a group pd artists who are specialists. Flamenco falls into that category and its been that way at least since the 19th century".
I'm not so sure flamenco transcended to art when it was commercialized in the late 19th century. Can you tell me the repertoire of those early professionals? That might have been equally restricted to "a couple of songs" as the geographical/cultural limitations you associate with folk. Despite a couple of big shots with severe overall knowledge and a huge (solo)repertoire up to the late 50ties the main if not ONLY two guitar solos accepted ON STAGE by general audience were Granainas and Zambra Mora. Do you mean to say that in the 50ties styles like Soleares and bulerias were still folk and the generally accepted Granainas and Zambra were art?
I guess the biggest contribution to the precent (overall) knowledge is the influence of television and lp's/cd's/dvd's, and the local festivals and contests (that partly also embrace local specialties) As far as i know Caña and Polo are often avoided in contests since many are not 100% sure about what belongs to what and you don't want to be caught on a mistake by the jury don't you?
"Folks musics ...tend to change with time and region to a point of being unique to a particular geography or culture"
Well, if that isn't the story of flamenco i don't know what is. Flamenco is still evolving and despite some marvelous things going on not all changes are for the good. Back in the 70-ties Paco Peñas rhythmic nuances in tientos and fandangos were unique and second to none, but over the years he lost that quality, mainly because he down-leveld to blend in with others players who joined him on stage in the 80ties and 90ties. Future young performers might even start to think flamenco origins from (latin)jazz and not from old cantes. I guess (despite a couple of all round professionals) Flamenco is still very much a "local" and (sub)cultural related event. Is a "brainy" bulerias performed by Paco de Lucia art and a passionate bulerias de Jerez performed in a private setting by a local top player folk?
Like you i don't see any artistic difference between flamenco, Indian, persian, chinese, Gamelan, balkan, rebetica, tango and all other forms of "world music"or any music at all. Personally i just make the distinction <good/bad/ok> or if you prefer <truthful/not truthful>, which happens to occur at all kinds of music. To me badly played tourist flamenco very much feels like what you described as being porn (not something i would describe as art) so in my opinion it's not the type of music that makes something art but the level of composition/performance/honesty.
For the sake of argument.... what kinds of music do you (still) consider to be folk?
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Date Sep. 27 2012 19:47:54
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to Erik van Goch)
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quote:
Can you tell me which % of the Spanish citizens appreciate and understand flamenco?
Very few. Even here in Andalucia. You´ll be surprised that the number is that low. Here in western Andalucia, (Cadiz, Sevilla, Huelva) there are people appreciating flamenco, but when you go to Granada, Jaen and Almeria, this number drops to close to nothing. Especially in rural zones. Outside Andalucia..... Hardly anything.
In general, outside west Andalucia, Flamenco is something you find in small environments in cities.
IMHO, all this folk, versus not folk discussion is stupid and is mainly discussed by people not liking the category folk and which are very afraid that they should fall into that category themselves. I´ve played different kinds of folk music all my life (and rock, classical, punk, freaky etc.) and I´m proud of playing folk music. It has roots and culture. You can feel it and you can touch it and its not posh like all this world music, ethnic, etc.
Flamencos are very afraid of the word folkmusic. uuuuuhhhhhhhhh. So they dress up and put flamenco into environments like the Sevilla bienal, and there, IMHO, flamenco dies.
Roots flamenco, like what they did in Jerez and there about in the 60th (watch rito y geografia del cante) has all the ingredients of good folk music. And it rocks 100 times more than some posh flamenco performance in a big theater in Sevilla (Granada, Cordoba, Madrid etc.) where people show up in their fine dress to see and to be seen and to bla bla.
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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Sep. 28 2012 8:02:53
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michel
Posts: 315
Joined: Apr. 14 2008
From: france
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RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
I´ve played different kinds of folk music all my life (and rock, classical, punk, freaky etc.) and I´m proud of playing folk music. It has roots and culture. You can feel it and you can touch it and its not posh like all this world music, ethnic, etc.
well said Anders
I don't understand what's so embarrassing about folkmusic, not "cool" enough?
i also enjoy hungarian, bavarian, swiss, french, american and african etc. folk music. everything what's played straight out of the heart.
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Date Sep. 28 2012 9:12:36
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
IMHO, all this folk, versus not folk discussion is stupid and is mainly discussed by people not liking the category folk and which are very afraid that they should fall into that category themselves. I´ve played different kinds of folk music all my life (and rock, classical, punk, freaky etc.) and I´m proud of playing folk music. It has roots and culture. You can feel it and you can touch it and its not posh like all this world music, ethnic, etc.
one of my great-grandfathers worked all his life as a farm labourer and knew (according to my grandad) "several hundred old folk songs", and he also played some kind of squeezy instrument for dancing. He never went to school, never learnt to read or write. My grandad only remembered a few fragments of the songs, he wasn't really interested, which i think is a shame. The old rural popular music of ordinary people now sounds so odd to our urban electric lives, but i'm proud of my roots and history and have a lot of respect for folk music.
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Date Sep. 28 2012 18:43:59
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Why orchestra? (in reply to estebanana)
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I looked at this thread a little at the beginning, but lost interest. Reading more, I find it fascinating.
Musically I have always been a hexagonal peg, fitting neither round holes nor square ones. When I was a kid trumpet player my symphonic friends would ask why I would hang out with "those guys that play out of tune" and my jazz friends would ask why I would spend hours in rehearsal and concert, "just reading notes off a page."
I soon gave up trying to explain that Miles Davis wasn't playing out of tune, he was playing exactly what he wanted to, and after ten seconds you could confidently say, "That's Miles." And I gave up trying to tell my jazz buddies, that if those notes were well written and well played, the whole thing could take off and soar like a great airship.
Flamenco with orchestra is often a clash of these two sensibilities, being successful as neither.
Cante is the soul of flamenco because the singer individualizes stock material. He or she takes a letra, done by dozens of others, and an equally hackneyed melody, compas and harmony, and produces a moving performance by personalizing them.
The great symphonic composers take a prevailing style, and impose their vision on it, sometimes with revolutionary effect--but the players must subordinate themselves to the vision of the composer, and to a lesser extent to the conductor, and play in a unified style.
Each genre imposes its limitations. The cantaor can't contrast a flute solo with full orchestra and crashing percussion. The second chair violist in a Beethoven symphony can't pursue a sudden inspiration. The means of expression are limited to the particular genre.
To my ear, the solo flamenco guitarist's means of expression are more limited than the cantaor's.
"Well," you may say, "Miles's 'Echoes of Spain' album with orchestra was a great success, artistically and commercially." Yes, but the guitar can't totally dominate the orchestra the way Miles could with his trumpet in the recording studio. So instead of dominant soloist with orchestral support, you often get a mishmash, or even the guitarist becomng less expressive in an attempt to integrate with the orchestra.
This is not to say there aren't good flamenco guitar/orchestra pieces, nor to disagree with estebanana's suggestions that there may be more fruitful approaches. Just my take on the situation.
RNJ
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Date Sep. 28 2012 21:48:48
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