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ORIGINAL: Deniz In this case im pretty sure im not having any taste issue. Above i provided some pointers, which are clear to those who care to read.
Wait, this isn't just a difference in taste or opinion? Did you provide a rigorous mathematical proof somewhere for the statement "there's no artistic merit in combining flamenco with orchestra" and I somehow just missed it? Silly me.
Well i like steak and i like chocolate cream but i dont want to eat a chocolate steak... not even if its a "well-done" mix
Well stated, Deniz. That is as succinct a metaphor as I have seen to describe how one can appreciate both orchestral music and flamenco, and yet find the two combined less than the sum of its parts.
Cheers,
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
I wouldnt waste my time opening a thread only to show my dislikes. I thought there WAS some kind of artistic reason behind it which i was missing, other than that "people like it". Because people like all kinds of **** too. Doesnt make it any valuable. But im starting to rationalize again, which raises the level of this thread far above the appreciated limit.
Hehe Bill, glad that finally we have found a common ground
It really pisses me when I post an amazing well thought out rant and it gets ignored.
See if I ever piss on your parade again!
Hey Stephen,
Have five or six beers at the Edinburgh Pub on Geary Street. You'll have plenty of ammunition to piss on anyone's parade!
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
I wouldnt waste my time opening a thread only to show my dislikes. I thought there WAS some kind of artistic reason behind it which i was missing, other than that "people like it". Because people like all kinds of **** too. Doesnt make it any valuable. But im starting to rationalize again, which raises the level of this thread far above the appreciated limit.
Hehe Bill, glad that finally we have found a common ground
Are there artistic reasons that don't come down, in the end, to "because the artist (or audience) likes it"?
I wouldnt waste my time opening a thread only to show my dislikes. I thought there WAS some kind of artistic reason behind it which i was missing
i tried to explain to you but I think...u not genuinely asking or reading the replies with an open mind....just looking to reinforce what you already think about it
Imo there is artistic and practical value and propose ...it does contribute to the overall effect weather you like it or not ( as much as a picado or a rasqueado or a tap would, to create a certain effect or emotion in a melody)
what u have its an opinion not a fact ...i guess we both do....unfortunately we are dealing with taste, music, and arts here, there really are no wrong or right answers that can be proven...so if you dont like it or get it then you dont like it or get it...thats u , its not everyone OBVIOUSLY cause it still gets done... and cause amazing flamenco guitarists with a much bigger grasp than yourself on flamenco and what it is and what it should be and how it could be and understanding it ARE doing it.
SO i guess since guys like Paco and Vicente wrote the rule book you are kind of playing by...even if YOU dont get it...i think u can afford to give them the benefit of the doubt that it does have artistic value...which perhaps at this point in time is flying straight past your head...(thats what i put everything i dont get down to...sometimes those things change and i like this year what i didn't like 5 years ago)
obviously not everything thats ever had orchestra works or has worked but that dosent mean everything dosent either...
quote:
good arranging can absolutely highlight and make the guitar better and show its depth and its beauty...
perfect examples Vicente's Poeta or Paco's Concierto de Aranjuez (even tho theres a whole orchestra the guitar stands out as the solo instrument)....that first time the guitar comes in by itself with the theme melody after the orchestra build up just absolutely makes and shows the guitar's beauty, shows its brilliance, would not get the same effect without the orchestral build up to it......it can certainly add to it and be used to highlight it ...
Deniz, if its not just taste,, then what is it? I dont think you can find an academic solution to that. To me its just taste and nothing else. There are things made with orchestra that I like. But in general, I dont like it and there´s a tendency in flamenco to look for new things all the time which I personally find to be empty and which takes the music away from what I like it to be: Direct, spiritual and in the face.
Deniz, if its not just taste,, then what is it? I dont think you can find an academic solution to that.
I think you can. Doent mean it doesnt exist only because noone here has ever spent one thought on it. The question im asking myself is what does this orchestra thing contribute to the solo guitar material, which makes it worth to risk loosing the rhythmical directness that is usually present in flamenco compositions and underpowering the guitar sound. The same thing when you add some new parts to the guitar construction, it better serve a function of the guitar or else its useless. This is also what i meant with artistic reason or value, which was a bad choice of expression by me maybe.
For example you can argue that adding a bass to some compositions is beneficial, because it gives a fuller sound and depth. Adding violin always helps with underlying, continuous melodies, if thats what youre looking for in a composition.
To Florian, only because theyre good at FLAMENCO doesnt mean theyre good at ANYTHING ELSE. What does playing aranjuez or for bryan adams have to do with flamenco anyway? Its wrong to acknowledge EVERYTHING ELSE THAN FLAMENCO as fine art only because they excell in FLAMENCO.
Deniz, if its not just taste,, then what is it? I dont think you can find an academic solution to that.
I think you can. Doent mean it doesnt exist only because noone here has ever spent one thought on it. The question im asking myself is what does this orchestra thing contribute to the solo guitar material, which makes it worth to risk loosing the rhythmical directness that is usually present in flamenco compositions and underpowering the guitar sound. The same thing when you add some new parts to the guitar construction, it better serve a function of the guitar or else its useless. This is also what i meant with artistic reason or value, which was a bad choice of expression by me maybe.
I think the reason I like some flamenco/orchestral mixes is that it sounds pleasing to my ears. As in, when I listen to something like the guajira from Vicente's Poeta, or the string section in that Riqueni soleá or pretty much anything on Tauromagia, it triggers the release of endorphins, gives me an enjoyable feeling, and makes me want to listen to it again. I hope this helps!
o Florian, only because they're good at FLAMENCO doesnt mean theyre good at ANYTHING ELSE. What does playing aranjuez or for bryan adams have to do with flamenco anyway? Its wrong to acknowledge EVERYTHING ELSE THAN FLAMENCO as fine art only because they excell in FLAMENCO.
well i am not sure if u heard Vicente's Poeta but there are some flamenco palos in there, guajira for example so its not all non flamenco pieces
also just cause they are good at flamenco dosent mean they terrible at EVERYTHING else
anyway as i said u not really asking and waiting for an answer, just looking for someone to agree with your view ...so if thats what u need sure :-) u got it
I kind of like the Del Monte concerto, it's not as boring as those insipid Rodrigo concertos written for Segovia.
I think flamenco guitar works with orchestra, but so far no one has really orchestrated one with modern enough orchestration ideas for my taste. There are so many interesting places it could go, but most composers, guitarists have stayed very conservative or conventional with the orchestration. The flamenco and to an extent the classical guitar, although not so much today, and orchestra blend always seems to get trapped in a folk music idiom. It's like the guitar plays a solo and the orchestration supports it. Older concertos like Rodrigos concerto are set up this way for the most part, because hey you're supposed to feature the solo instrument in a concerto. However I feel like most of it is this supporting accompaniment that drags it down.
A flamenco guitar could accompany solo instruments in the orchestra the way it accompanies singers and the orchestration could be more far out harmonically and texturally. I hear these orchestra flamenco guitar things and they often sound really cloyingly tonal in the respect that they try to be folky. Even when Kodaly and Bartok were collecting folk music material to document it and study it, they later used it as thematic material for their own works. One of the things that Bartok did with this primary source material was to transform it, not reproduce it. I feel like flamenco guitar orchestra projects by and large have not even caught up to Bartok yet, thus to my ear accustomed to hearing complex twentieth century orchestration they sound old fashioned.
I hear things to be much darker and less tonal, more about the sounds of flamenco becoming part of a chamber orchestra, but not verbatim palos spelled out as guitar solo with orchestral backing. I think there would be a narrow audience for music like this so people are not trying to do it.
There are the types of groups not that are playing flamenco with older Sephardic music or Arabic forms and blending them together. It resembles a form of baroque continuo playing, which is cool. the format is like solo, support, solo, support, trade to the other genre repeat. It's like form of jazz in that is is open for improvisation. But it still not modern it is harmonic structures or symphonic ideas.
So yeah I'm into orchestra and flamenco guitar, but waiting for the Charles Ives or Iannis Xenakis of flamenco guitar to appear and take it to a new place besides the harmonic artificial sweeteners we mostly get. The players are good, the orchestras are good, but the composers are boxed into these boring old symphonic structures for various reasons, like worried about freaking out the audience of flamencos; who by and large are very narrow musically if you deconstruct flamenco. As long as traditional cante' is not harmed in any way, right, it's fair to reconstruct flamenco into a dark brooding monster like an Egon Wellesz symphony or Schnittke cello sonata. And in the end maybe cante' should be assailed and dismembered and Bartokized.
So yes I find flamenco guitar and orchestra annoying, but for reasons that don't l have anything to do with the orchestral contamination of flamenco. In my view it's not contaminated enough to make it interesting to listen to as modern music.
You bring up some good points. For one, I never really thought of flamenco guitar being an accompaniment instrument to an orchestra, or vice versa. Interesting. When flamenco guitar is used to accompany singers, the singers voice is the dominant, guiding projection, and that's what makes it sound 'flamenco'. So if orchestra is the dominant one, that can't be flamenco. So then this means that the orchestrated music has to accompany the flamenco guitar to give it a flamenco feel. Flamenco guitar is the center.
I think Deniz is looking for a TECHNICAL answer rather than a "I feel like flamenco guitar sounds with orchestra because it's my taste". So then to answer this, we all need to have a basis or definition of what makes ANYTHING flamenco. Kind of hard for me to answer, since we all have our own input. I know key words that comes to my head when I think flamenco that may help piece together what it is, and then see how the guitar plays a part of it:
Rhythm Intensity Some level of dark and 'broodness' as Estebanana calls it Emotion based on history Melodic phrasing with attention to rhythm Poetic 'flow' with a story to the sound based on musical structure
So I hear all of these things when I listen to flamenco guitar (solo, without singing/dancing). When we add orchestra, I hear more or less the same things highlighted and it still feels muy flamenco to me.
Take this piece by Chicuelo, which most of us have heard (I hope!), but see how 'flamenco' the orchestra help brings out:
Initially, it's just guitar, but it plays with the viola so well. The melodies that are played with the viola matches the falsetas played, and at times, can give it that abrupt intensity that flamenco offers (as in 3:40-4:05) and it complements the flamenco guitar falseta before and after that...and then they both come together at the very end. It's all very artistic because of that. I don't know how to describe it. It's modern and unorthodox, but it has a lot of feeling in it that just screams flamenco to me. But then again, just my opinion.
Here's what Chicuelo says about that piece (translated):
"It was a sort of waltz and in the end, I decided to do it with Elisabeth Gex because it was a really open song. I also wanted to do a song in which the viola played the lead role, in tribute to the work she’s done with me and in support of the instrument. And she even has her moment when she improvises, nor do I improvise. In some of the songs I didn’t want to attach importance to myself, but rather give it to the one whose turn it was. I’m not seeking success; I don’t want to be too present. I like to be there but I leave, I come back, I leave... I’m not the typical guitarist who always wants to be there, no matter who he has behind him. That lack of humility and that lack of comradeship aren’t good. Some might think the contrary, and ask why the viola played instead of me playing... But it’s because it didn’t fit in or because I didn’t feel like it. It isn’t about who plays, but rather about you liking what you hear. What does it matter?"
Now wouldn't you think that his decision to work with an orchestra (or at least viola) improves himself, making him a well-verse accompanist that can understand beyond the traditional boundaries of flamenco, and possibly bring these elements he learned back into flamenco, making it better?
Flamenco is folk music. Orchestral music is not. Blending them introduces elements to both that do not normally exist in each. It's the same sort of thing as when a rock band like Deep Purple or Metallica plays with an orchestra. It's not going to change the direction that the music goes in the future but for that particular performance it introduces those different textures in the sound that are not normally there. In that sense there is artistic merit to it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Some people like it, some people don't.
However, there is also an element of prestige involved in it. Orchestras are managed with certain standards. To play with an orchestra implies that you have met that standard. Some people will look at that when prejudging a musician.
Although it doesn't do anything to continue the tradition in flamenco, there is artistic merit to it but there is also prestige in doing it. As far as the art goes, it is purely a musical endeavour.
I don't think flamenco is folk music, and I think much of orchestral music it taken from folk music. The reason I don't classify flamenco as folk music is because it has highly developed formal structures. It is a self contained art form, it does not draw from other forms to be complete yet other forms draw from flamenco and it can add to other forms.
There are many types of Spanish folk musics or songs that contribute to flamenco music, but once they are adopted they have to be taken through the formal language of structure that makes flamenco operate. The reason flamenco artists can get together a and perform the same music is because of a formal structure that every one knows. Folks musics have structures of corse, but remain outside greater structures formal structures and tend to change with time and region to the point of being unique to a particular geography or culture. Flamenco has transcended cultural uniqueness, a long time ago and is also a music that is performed by a select group of professional artists which uphold professional standards. Folk musics tend to not have this component of professionalism and formal rules or standards in order to create a body of recognized professional performers.
Many types of music can be performed by amateur and professional alike, but those forms that have a body of professional specialists are not folk musics. In my opinion.
Orchestral music from the end of the Baroque has leaned heavily on folks music for its primary source material. Haydn is a good example as he took in folk melodies form the gypsy violinists that lives near the court where he served. And while that is not folk music when it is orchestrated, I bring it up to point out how much symphonic music draws from true folk music. This influence runs strong from Haydn through to mid 20th century composers like Rodrigo...
Not to put too fine a point on it....but I think it is a point to be discussed in this context.
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Part of my frustration with the way flamenco and symphonic music has ben constructed, and I reiterate, is that is follows a very formulaic soloist with orchestral accompaniment model. There are many many things which have yet to be explored which could prove to be very flamenco and not simply an adjunct backing up of solo guitar by 60 guys with violins and bassoons.
The soloist with orchestra model takes it's structures fro the classical concerto forms for the most part. The classical concerto is designed to feature a solo instrument. That is fine, but there are other possibilities for working flamenco and guitar together with symphonic ideas.
One idea that has yet to me mined is large flamenco guitar ensembles. Ensembles with perhaps 12, 16 or 20 flamenco guitars working together to create a new kind of flamenco sound. Imagine 12 flamenco guitars in various tunings and capo stops engaged to show the whole textual range that flamenco guitars can play. Some guitars could have lowered tunings which could include bass notes like D, C ,B, A below standard E. And other guitars capo stopped up at the 9th fret to show that timbre of the guitar.
Such an ensemble of good guitarists could play as part of a symphony or better yet a chamber orchestra and the parts could be written to range form individual guitarists taking great solo parts to the whole group playing together to accompany an oboe solo, for example.
The thing about this kind of ensemble is that it could work outside the idea of a simple soloist vs. orchestra format and new sounds, textures and timbres of flamenco guitar could be revealed by the way writing brings out those qualities we think of as flamenco sound and tries to make them more expansive.
That is only one direction I can think of, to me the mind boggles at all the things that have yet to be tried besides soloist with orchestra, which I agree is not the most flamenco format when you think about the agility and envelope of sound flamenco guitarists make. Imagine 12 flamenco players doing a giant siguiriya and messing with textures like covering the strings, golpe, solos over tapao playing, a group of low open bass strings against another group of guitars on capo 9.
Given that guitar players that do flamenco can understand the music better than classical players there could be a high degree of accuracy and drive behind a guitar ensemble that could be blended with a chamber orchestra. The problem with flamenco guitar is that most of the time the players are hyper focused on the individual guitarist, and or themselves as soloist. It is difficult to present the idea that flamenco could be done with more guitarists as a guitar orchestra and include cante because the guitarists want to be the only one who accompanies. But there are many examples in Western and Eastern music where very fluid large ensembles can catch the nuance of a singer or soloist and still remain true to the basics of that form.
It never ceases to amaze me that flamenco groups are so eager to add farting electric basses, cajons, clay pots, sitar, Martian nose flutes or dulcimers to flamenco without mining the obvious idea of a larger guitar ensembles. And that composers/guitarists have not thought out past the idea that taking a flamenco palo solo and adding orchestration is a tired old game.
I'm not trying to be a problem, I'm trying to draw out a bigger conversation about what people really like or dislike about orchestral/flamenco blends.
I think the conversation has stayed in this one place for a long time. I hear the same answers over and over: Orchestra w/ flamenco guitar robs the intimacy and mystery of flamenco guitar. The orchestra is fun because you go for a ride and get to be the big shot taking a solo; in Western classical music playing a concerto has always been a mark of accomplishment, but in flamenco often times it is the sum of all working together in ensemble to create good flamenco. Why does this understanding get thrown out when it comes to symphonic blends with flamenco guitar?
Why are there no or very few flamenco guitarists or composers on par with the modern classical composers keeping pace with how symphonic music is going today? We talk about the same format soloist vs. orchestra over and over is anyone else interested in going farther? Where is the string quartet that can play a driving buleria with a great guitarist? The string quartets are out there, and Shostakovich's quartets are as driving as a Jerez buleria, why has no one put the pieces together?
everybody quick dont read estebananas replie ....he tried again turn around now !
lol jk. mate, i just have a minute before i go off so i cant read it all now but il read it when i get back ...i found your " its so frustrating when you write something long and dont get a replie back" comment to be spot on and funny ...good on you for saying it...it IS ! annoying when someone asks, then u get involved, put a lot of thought into it, into the wording....do a lot of writing, thinking to yourself " AHA" this will get em, its brilliant !! lol
u come back noone even looked at it or the thread went past it like an express train past your stop ...when you are in the hurry
fok music - music that originates in traditional popular culture or that is written in such a style. Folk music is typically of unknown authorship and is transmitted orally from generation to generation.
By this definition, I would still consider flamenco to be folk music. Although flamenco is transcending cultural boundaries and there is a strong element of professionalism in today's flamenco, at its root it is the folk music of the lower classes of Andalucía. In my mind, this connection to its folk music roots is what leads to the guitar and orchestra mix getting set in the folk music idiom.
Compañia Azul (El Tortuga's group) is playing in my city in January. I think they might be playing with the Edmonton Symphony Orchestra for that one. It will be interesting to hear how they approach it. I'm looking forward to it.
fok music - music that originates in traditional popular culture or that is written in such a style. Folk music is typically of unknown authorship and is transmitted orally from generation to generation.
By that definition Indian classical music, Persian classical music, Greek music, Chinese music, Gamelan, large extents of Western classical music would all be folk music. And the other problem with that definition is that in folk idioms many times the author is well known.
I guess either everything is folk music or there needs to be multiple definitions. Or folk music is like porn, I know it when I hear it.
Maybe a better way to call these folk forms is vernacular music. I always have drawn the line at a formally organized professionally performed music that is played on stage for it's own sake by a group pd artists who are specialists. Flamenco falls into that category and its been that way at least since the 19th century.
lol jk. mate, i just have a minute before i go off so i cant read it all now but il read it when i get back ...i found your " its so frustrating when you write something long and dont get a replie back" comment to be spot on and funny ...good on you for saying it...it IS ! annoying when someone asks, then u get involved, put a lot of thought into it, into the wording....do a lot of writing, thinking to yourself " AHA" this will get em, its brilliant !! lol
Fish on the line!
I'm so happy you took that bait Florian. *grabs the popcorn waits for replies*
everybody quick dont read estebananas replie ....he tried again turn around now !
lol jk. mate, i just have a minute before i go off so i cant read it all now but il read it when i get back ...i found your " its so frustrating when you write something long and dont get a replie back" comment to be spot on and funny ...good on you for saying it...it IS ! annoying when someone asks, then u get involved, put a lot of thought into it, into the wording....do a lot of writing, thinking to yourself " AHA" this will get em, its brilliant !! lol
u come back noone even looked at it or the thread went past it like an express train past your stop ...when you are in the hurry
Estebanana should write a book. All theese looooooong posts are not for forums. I dont read them for the simple reason the I dont have the time, so I dont reply either.
Flamencos dont like the use of the word folk music. They are to snobby for that. And somehow they are right if you consider that flamenco is not a direct herency of a folk tradition. Its a lot of things mixed together at a certain time. I wouldnt call blues for folk music either, but Irish folk is definately folk music. It has direct roots going hundreds or thousands of years back.
So an acceptable compromise will be to call flamenco for Ethnic music.
So yes I find flamenco guitar and orchestra annoying, but for reasons that don't l have anything to do with the orchestral contamination of flamenco. In my view it's not contaminated enough to make it interesting to listen to as modern music.
very interesting, 9 out of 10 times this is true for me too, its not that interesting, it loses a a certain aspect that we look for in flamenco (the closeness and personality of the individual player, it instantly becomes like some grand big theme song in which details get lost rather then some humble melody we can feel close to, relate to and pay attention to, i get it) it instantly becomes the Titanic song lol...it kind of loses the detail, closeness and accessibility that we are so addicted to in flamenco
..but it kind of becomes about something else...there are times when i heard this something else as something pleasant ...like Vicente's Poeta which I find beautiful ( minus the cheesy vocal poems )...yes it becomes about something else, and it loses one aspect i love but still... i enjoy it,....even if in a different way to a well played bulerias... my girlfriend enjoys it when i put it on in the car, it feels inspiring....i could dissect it and find things wrong with it but what for, i am just denying myself an experience i could have...and if i am having it...why fix it if it works...for me at least... it does what I think music is sopossed to do, inspires me or makes you feel something...music does not need to make intelligent sense , just mean something to me or make me feel something
I do also understand what u saying, of course i am sure they haven't even scratched the surface of the possibilities in flamenco...in a way...that it dosent become something else or dosent sacrifice one aspect for the propose of getting the other
So an acceptable compromise will be to call flamenco for Ethnic music.
Or roots music. That's how iTunes usually classifies it. What we call it is pretty irrelevant. The distinction is made in this discussion to generalize the differences between flamenco and orchestra.
Flamenco has a minimalist sound. This gives the intimacy in the sound and creates a personal connection between guitarist, singer, dancer, and the audience. When an orchestra is added as support there seems to be a clash between the small, intimate sound of the guitar up front and the big, loud orchestra in the back. Adding an orchestra in anything more than a supporting role can create a sound that's too big for the personal connection and changes the timbre in a way that makes one ask: Is it still flamenco? But, since this has been done so rarely, it's hard to say.
Anders, you're probably half right. Estebanana probably should write a book.
But claiming his posts are too long for a forum is dead wrong. They're too long for you, you mean, which is fine. But I wouldn't want to discourage him. I enjoy his posts, short or long. They're interesting, informative, and often funny. And they're full of ideas. I don't have time to read them either, but I do anyway, often multiple times.
Keep it up Estebanana. The original, quite preposterous, proposition has yielded a great thread.
Personally, I like the string arrangements on the soundtrack of the film 'The Hit'. A great movie and the strings build a cathedral around Paco's greatest 'bits'.
ORIGINAL: estebanana It never ceases to amaze me that flamenco groups are so eager to add farting electric basses, cajons, clay pots, sitar, Martian nose flutes or dulcimers to flamenco without mining the obvious idea of a larger guitar ensembles.
I can hardly stand two guitars if its not exceptional players. Guitar ensembles suffer the lack of acoustic clarity. For this reason i can see very well why adding OTHER instruments than a guitar can be beneficial to the "texture" as you call it.
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