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Sequential Planting
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cbecker78
Posts: 26
Joined: May 18 2012
From: Texas
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 RE: Sequential Planting (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
No. It's Play P place a...play a place m, play m place i. play i then place whatevers next. That's sequential planting.
Ricardo
I wonder if maybe sequential planting is something that is different depending on the teacher? I was taught that sequential planting was to plant the next finger before plucking the current one. So the sequence "p-a-m-i" would be
plant p and a, release p; plant m, release a; plant i, release m; etc.
The explanation I was given was that sequential planting played this way allows the releasing finger to be fully stablized and depressed such that accuracy is perfect and a true fortissimo volume is possible on a free stroke***. Once perfected, I understand that the plant happens so close before to the subsequent release that it is hard to actually see it happening.
I assume this is how Segovia actually taught/played, at least at some point in his career only because that is what I was told. My instructor's instructor had a dozen or so lessons with Segovia, and his instructor (Miguel Bernal) was one of Segovias students over several years (I've made no effort to verify this information).
Of course, I'm not suggesting that what I have been taught is any more "right" of a technique than what you describe. Just sharing the alternate way of teaching that was given to me along with the rationale and source.
I'd be interested if you had any knowledge of whether our different approaches to sequential planting are specific to classical vs. flamenco technique, or just different approaches among guitarists in general...
***(Depressing the next string out of the way of the free stroke by this sequential planting seems to be a benefit also, but that is just my own observation, especially when I kept sounding two strings at once while trying to increase my volume with increased pressure).
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Date Sep. 13 2012 19:47:06
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dararith
Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 4 2010
From: Oakland, CA
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RE: Sequential Planting (in reply to rombsix)
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quote:
I've been eating a lot of Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme nowadays.
Suddenly I want Italian food...!
quote:
Thanks for the advise!! I got so used to the p i m a plant that when doing a
p m a i arp. three fingers automatically do a full plant.
I am trying to do the sequential plant, but, for some reason the full plant is easier for me right now.
It's possible that over time the full plant will become a sequential plant naturally, as your dexterity and speed increases. It's a product of getting the sound we want and wanting to be able to execute it at will faster. I started off doing full plants, and I'm doing sequential ones for all of my arpeggios now because it just happened that way...and it feels comfortable. Granted, I still need more work on my arpeggios, for sure...but it sounds cleaner than it did previously, and I can do it faster (i.e. the typical pimami remate from Bb to A in a Solea por medio)
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Date Sep. 14 2012 4:01:55
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Kalo
Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
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RE: Sequential Planting (in reply to Kalo)
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quote:
It's possible that over time the full plant will become a sequential plant naturally, as your dexterity and speed increases. It's a product of getting the sound we want and wanting to be able to execute it at will faster. I started off doing full plants, and I'm doing sequential ones for all of my arpeggios now because it just happened that way...and it feels comfortable. Granted, I still need more work on my arpeggios, for sure...but it sounds cleaner than it did previously, and I can do it faster (i.e. the typical pimami remate from Bb to A in a Solea por medio)
Awesome, daraith!!!
quote:
i originally learnt planting p and a in preparation for pami arps (could you call that a "half-plant"?), and then playing sequentially from there.
but i later developed full plant pami after watching a guitarist who appeared to be playing this way, and in an attempt to get that sound and speed (he was just ripping them off!).
can't remember who it was, and after hearing much discussion of sequential planting here and going back over Nuñez vid I don't use it so much now, and if I practise arps I work on sequential planting
but the full plant pami is still in the bag if ever i need it!
I think, I am going to work on both...But, it's nice to know that a full plant pami is also valid 
Thanks,
Kalo
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Date Sep. 14 2012 14:49:26
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cbecker78
Posts: 26
Joined: May 18 2012
From: Texas
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 RE: Sequential Planting (in reply to johnnefastis)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: johnnefastis
cbecker78 your technique sounds interesting but I am wondering if it limits the amount of notes ringing through the arpeggio. From what I understand, if you were to play full planted arpeggios pimami pimami would only have one note actually ringing at a time. Your approach I think you would have two.
Well not quite. You would only do a full plant on pima, then start the sequential plant descending on the aimp. But even if you did do a full plant in both directions, lets say on strings 4,3,2,1,2,3,4, where would you make the plants? Obviously at the start, and then again maybe at the top?
Maybe your confusion is that you do not return your finger to the string in a full plant. You just start with all four fingers on the strings, and then sound them one at a time. For up, it would be pima, strings 4,3,2,1, and when you are done, they would all be ringing. Well, actually you would have m on string 2 when you are done because you would have already started the sequential plant for the descending part of the arpegio (by my approach anyway).
Or if you were playing full plants with pimapima, it would be plant-p-i-m-a-plant-p-i-m-a. Strings would start ringing on the first P, and would all keep sounding until the second plant. The only time you would be returning fingers to a string between plants like you describe is if you are immidiately about to use it in the next note or intentionally muting strings. (I haven't learned any muting techniqes yet though).
The "sorta rules" I was given is use full plants only if ascending and you don't need those other strings to keep ringing. otherwise it is sequential planting in both directions or else just prepared strokes. The actions for prepared and planted are the same (i.e., find string, depress string, release string), but planting involves having the "next finger" on the string at the same time as or immediately before sounding the note you are playing. so your hand is "planted"). Prepared strokes are just the same only fingers only contact the string about to be played. (again, this is just the terminology for these techniques that I was given).
I'll try to make a video this weekend and put it up to at least show what I am talking about if it is still not clear. Hopefully I could handle that even with my ridiculous camera anxiety... but no promises! 
quote:
One thing I am also wondering which I think relates to this is....
My first teacher who was taught at Rotterdam encouraged to "play into the palm". This is to develop hand and arm muscles to work rather than the fingers. I think it makes sense but I always wonder how the finger should return after it has struck the note. If it returned to the string it would be full planting right ? I aim to try and return it so that it hovers back over the string, but I am not sure if thats the best way to practice.
Hope that makes sense, I should probably just upload a video.
Yeah, I have an excercise that encourages that "into the palm" playing too... a lot of people, especially me, self teach a free stroke that sorta plucks "up" from the main knuckle and only back at the second knuckle. The palm muting associated with travis-style picking sort of encourages that motion I think. for classical free stroke, it's almost impossible (so I've been told) to get good volume that way. But at the same time my teacher mentioned that some university programs teach that, so I don't know.
Specifically to your question on "return", my understanding is that after plucking the note, your finger should return to a relaxed poise more or less hovering over the strings like you indicate unless you are about to do another full with all four fingers or sequential plant with that finger.
Ok, hope that helps clarify what I was talking about!
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Date Sep. 14 2012 21:27:17
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Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
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RE: Sequential Planting (in reply to Kalo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kalo
I think, I am going to work on both...But, it's nice to know that a full plant pami is also valid
Thanks,
Kalo
Personally i would never ever pre-set my fingers in downwards direction (ami) but i guess everything is valid that helps you to produce the goods. The only real restriction is the quality of sound which obviously has to be to (y)our likings. On top i favor to play with completely relaxed fingers (in combination with controlled tension when wanted). Pre-planting fingers obviously is only possible when it doesn't inflict existing notes in an audible way.
Personally i played/studied arpeggios in many different ways and at all possible speeds. Not only did i study arpeggios as they occur "in the wild" but also applied various "over the top" pe-exercises (in order to train my physical and mental control/awareness).
MY PRE EXERCISES:
I always start with finding a correct hand position that combines optimal relaxation with optimal energy transposal. Many top players lift there right arm during arpeggio in order to create a balance between the optimal angle for energy input (fingers moving transverse to the strings) and maintaining acceptable conditions for fingers/hand/arm to function and relax as much as possible (natural line up arm>wrist>fingers).
Starting from what i call "walking hand position" i pre-plant my thump and arpeggio fingers and start with plugging <ima> simultaneously a couple of times (like plugging a 3 note chord)....SLOWLY AND RELAXED. Being plugged as a unit each fingers can find, claim and occupy it's own space, without hindering the other fingers. It also forces me to level the length-difference between my fingers and to level there energy input. On top it reveals minute but very disturbing differences in nail length when adding equal pressure to all 3 pre planted fingers simultaneously.... if 1 nail is to short it needs less energy to depart from the string (so that finger will slide of quicker than the other two), if 1 nail is to long it will need more energy to depart from the string (so that finger will remain behind).
NB: This finger leveling/nail checking "start of the day" i prefer to do with TREMOLO. Just like the arpeggio i pre-plant al 3 tremolo fingers (ima) on (believe it or not) 1 string!!!!! Next step is to plug it with all 3 fingers simultaneously. So in stead of the tremolo piami i play p<iam><iam><iam><iam>. Like the arpeggio exercise it forces me to level my fingers and to level/synchronize my energy input/nail length. On top it forces/limits my hand position to a position that happens to be superb for tremolo (i'll notice when i have to change strings during 1 set of tremolo like Piami>>>Eeeaa).
You can also reach arpeggio position by pre-planting all 3 fingers on the B string first (like the fabulous tremolo pre-exersize i mentioned) and while the m stays on the B string the i hops to the G string and the a to the E string.
Next i study the individual fingers, focusing on every part of the movement in detail:
* while the other 2 fingers stay on string i lift one finger slightly and replace (x times)
* next (from starting position) i add/release various levels of pressure to the string without plugging it (x times)>>> focus is on the relaxed phalanges who bend with the flow without interrupting it (like a trampoline).
* (a combination of) step 1 and 2 study the moment of contact/interaction in every detail
* next i plug the string in various gradations (hard/soft).
I focus on movement, energy control and complete relaxation>>especially my phalanges and finger joints should be completely relaxed. I practice both small and large movements.
* quite often i lift the finger in focus as high as possible before plugging, not stretching my finger but maintaining natural curves by lifting from 3th knuckle.
* also i quite often push the finger in focus as high as possible after plugging, landing in the palm of my hand/thump.
These often extremely slow studies i used to pre-study/exercise single finger movement with as main goal gaining complete awareness, control and relaxation. I also do the movement without hitting the string (fully).
Obviously this is not how i play arpeggio in real live, but it helps me to gain total control, very relaxed fingers, trained (and overqualified) muscles and a relaxed state of mind.
***********************************************************
MORE PRACTICAL EXERCISES:
Next i would practice all kind of arpeggios like pami, pima, pimami and all others (with and without apoyando). On top of my list is TOTAL RELAXATION and ECONOMY OF ENERGY INPUT/MOVEMENTS. In al studies these elements prevails to me over rhythm. After each finger i check and restore relaxation. Especially between the thump and the fingers this is my prior coal. At first this is only possible when i practice very very slowly.
MY BASIC STRATEGY:
The fingers must get all the space they need (you might favor stretching your thump up to an almost 90 degree angle).
I favor my thump to land on the neighboring string and if possible it stays there >>>In general playing the fingers is more easy when the RELAXED thump stays on string (Eebg>Aebg>Degb)
Obviously this is not always possible (Gebg,Debg>Aebg>Eebg). Then my thump stays in the air and sooner or later runs to the next string to be plugged.
I always relax between thump and fingers (drilled during pre studies)
Unlike the pre exercises i limit the movement to normal proportions.
Unlike the pre exercises i don't longer operate movement from 3th knuckle but embrace whatever comes out the lower parts of the fingers (without encouraging it).
The mechanism of optimal finger/thump coordination is a study on it's own. Al it takes is lot's of practice>>>>Slow and with full awareness of what works and what not.
This works for my hand:
*always relax the thump before playing the (also relaxed) fingers
*after plugging the finished finger relaxes in the air until it is needed again
*lifting and (renewed) plugging in general is one continuing "slow and relaxed" movement
*lifting is more easy as a contra move to an other finger plugging the string simultaneously (like walking)
PRE-SETTING:
When playing <Pimami> i might use the option to preset the <ima> part. After plugging i & m relax in the air and there next lifting>plugging movement is synchronized with the moment a is plugged (contra movement). M will simply perform it's complete lifting/plugging movement and i joins him during the lifting and either pauses on air until it's his turn to plug the next string, or continues previous lifting as a contra move to m plugging the string.
SOME FINAL THOUGHTS:
In general when i play a string "in real live" i don't focus on the string itself (despite studying the moment of contact/interaction in every little detail) but i merely focus on a point in the distance (for the thump the neighboring string)>>>hitting the strings in the process is merely "coincidental".
In general a completely relaxed hand/finger can act much quicker and much more fluent than a tensioned one. On top it sounds better as well.
You can also play/support the <PIma> part by integrating (additional) hand/wrist moves>>>in that case the fingers in a way pre-set "in the air" and/or removed from/(re)united with the string by subtle hand/wrist moves. All you have to do is to play your thump from the wrist rather than leaving the hand "on position" (when playing with the thump itself).... you can even do this without playing the thump for real: if it stays on string adding pressure to the thump from the wrist will raise your hand anyhow and withdrawing that tension will make your hand fall back again>>>in that movement the fingers can hit the string (especially if you add additional hand-lifting from the wrist in the process) and despite the sound you can honestly claim "you didn't move a finger" :-)
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Date Sep. 14 2012 21:33:37
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