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Learning flamenco... What style(s) to start with?   You are logged in as Guest
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tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

Learning flamenco... What style(s) t... 
Hi,

I am new to flamenco(after 10 years guitar playing) and I'm wondering what style of flamenco is the easiest to learn? I really love listening to bulerias but I am having trouble with the tapping of the guitar top and it probably isn't the easiest style anyway to start with...
But what would be your suggestions? I have been watching some youtube videos and I'm going to get some flamenco books from the library as a start. For now at least I'm not going to take lessons "in live".

thanks
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 15:54:39
 
shaun

Posts: 176
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Edmonton, Canada

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to tele) 
None of it is really that easy but soleá is a good place to start.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 16:07:31
 
Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to tele) 
i dont know what your technique is like but assuming its ok start with a simple tangos, i think thats the most familiar beat , all the books always recommend solea but i think tangos is easier since its a beat you are probably going to be familiar with 4/4, (anyway one of the 2)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 16:08:12
 
Tomrocker

Posts: 404
Joined: Apr. 18 2010
From: Italy

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to tele) 
Welcome to the foro tele. If you really want to learn Flamenco, then start with the Solea '' Mother of all the Flamenco Styles'' get familiar with the Compas and then move over.

If you just wanna play some flamenco, then the internet is really full of simple materials to play in any style you like. A teacher is something essential basically so as to develop correct habits regarding the technique.

please add your location to your profile so as to know from where are posting and i hope you can find the foro useful for you as if it is for us. also check the tab section here as it is full of useful materials.

Peace

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 16:09:57
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to Tomrocker) 
It's quite something indeed to play any style properly and to start paying complete attention to the counts of the beats and start playing without a pick. At least I have a real challenge in front of me
Solea sounds good!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 16:37:06
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to tele) 
I would have to agree on the Soleá but, to be honest, I never enjoyed it that much. However, it taught me the importance of compás, the techniques behind golpes, arpeggios, alzapua, tremelo, picado and rasgeados. The basic building blocks of flamenco guitar.

You will practise for hours and get nowhere but it will come, eventually. Just don't pick up any bad habits or they will stay around to haunt you.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 16:42:53
 
chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to tele) 
quote:

It's quite something indeed to play any style properly and to start paying complete attention to the counts of the beats and start playing without a pick.


I suggest you forget about playing 'proper' flamenco for now and just focus on technique. Losing the pick is hard enough without having to wrap your head around the himeola.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 17:16:34
 
rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to tele) 
Everyone is going to say either solea or tangos for the reasons already mentioned. I wanted to start out teaching tangos but ended up succumbing to starting off teaching solea to my students. I'm sure that after someone reads this, they're going to suggest a different palo than the above two just to tease me.

Cheers!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 17:17:35
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to rombsix) 
Does anyone have suggestions(/links) for good solea/tangos online lessons(to learn the basics and maybe some common chords)?

Thanks

PS. rombsix thanks for your youtube backing tracks!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 17:34:33
 
sig

 

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to tele) 
Yes, go over to Flamenco-Teacher.com and check out the lessons. There are some great basics and they are very inexpensive, some are free. Also check out La Sonanta as their site has some nice free intro lessons as well. Lots of great resources right on this site...
Sig--
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 17:42:06
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to sig) 
sig: thanks, altough for now I'd prefer free lessons... I have viewed already some lasonatas videos...

I am a fan of improvisation and hopefully one day I'll learn some flamenco improvisation... But I guess for now it's best to learn some songs/progressions to get a grip of the basics
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 17:45:15
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to tele) 
I would say, technique first, then palos. Do the opposite and chances are you will develop nasty habits that you will regret having developed.
You will touch a bunch of palos as you are learning technique since all of it will be very basic, so no need to limit yourself to just one.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 17:47:51
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to tele) 
I believe there is an easy way and a hard way to learn flamenco. The easy one would be to save some money to buy lessons (even if its just via skype). Everything else is almost impossible unless you have an exceptional amount of dedication, which, lets be honest for a moment, almost nobody has (i certainly dont).
Also im not sure you have the right picture on the structure of flamenco regarding imrpovisation. Its not about "soloing" over a fixed progression, its about throwing in some bits of melodic or chordal stuff in a, more or less interactive group context.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 18:27:56
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to XXX) 
Deniz: yes I know it's different from rock guitar improvisation for example. I pretty much meant improvising at least with compas. About jamming with other people, well that's a bit far out there for me for now at least.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 19:03:47
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to tele) 
As a student (and with my students) the main aim always was:

To develop a solid technique in small responsible steps
To develop a severe knowledge of the music in small responsible steps
To find a good balance between investing in the future (presuming one wants to become a master) and enjoying the here and now.

Especially for a beginner the amount of useful material (material they can handle, that helps them to understand/develop, that is future proof and preferably enjoyable) is limited. To benefit the accent of your focus has to be awareness. One moment that awareness focus on technique (doing technical exercises) on other moments it focus on musical structure (like compas), rhythm and/or expression.

Soleares is an excellent place to start because it can offer/integrate all these aspects on various levels of playing (from level zero to level De Lucia). But like i said, focus should be to find yourself material that fits your level and needs, that help you grow and if possible is enjoyable as well. As a teacher i vary the Soleares with small parts from other styles that is in (technical) reach like Tangos, Farruca, Sevillanas, Bulerias etc. I select (or simplify) material up to the level/needs of the student.

As a student of Paco Pena i started with lots of technique (thump) studies myself and we sticked to Soleares quite a long time. After apr. 6 mounds we made a slow start with exploring Seguiriyas, Tientos/tangos, Bulerias. Over a 5 year period of full time study we added apr. 3 or 4 new styles a year. We always started with learning the basic compas variations on the main (2) chords in very vey small steps. Then we gradually added some falsetas (the melodies) also in very very small steps which means building up from very simple via more complex to very complex. A responsible (and in my case academical) development was always considered the prior goal.

Wile maintaining/upscaling our soleares, seguiriyas, tientos/tangos and bulerias we gradually explored and integrated alegrias, fandangos, the free forms of fandangos (malageña, granainas, tarantas and later mineras and rondeña), guajiras, colombianas, verdiales, sevillanas, Solea por bulerias, serranas, peteneras, caña/polo and others. In my case we covered most styles for both solo/singing/dance (were possible). Most time was spend to technique and interpretation using both special exercises and real music (focusing in detail on parts (of parts) of falsetas as well on how to construct/perform a piece the correct way, again starting with combining 2 or 3 compas variations/falsetas and gradually building up a complete piece).

A good teacher can help you to prevent developing bad habits (but might have some them self). For a good technique/interpretation study the masters like Paco de Lucia, Vicente and Paco Peña.

good luck.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 19:04:22
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to tele) 
Rumba is easiest to learn. But It's ok to learn in conjunction with other basic compas patterns and falsetas. I normally start off with Solea with students. Some folks keep Rumba separate from other flamenco forms, but honestly you can develop most of the needed techniques with a few easy rumba tunes.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 21:18:31
 
rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to tele) 
quote:


Does anyone have suggestions(/links) for good solea/tangos online lessons(to learn the basics and maybe some common chords)?

Thanks

PS. rombsix thanks for your youtube backing tracks!


http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8A53F26477AB3721

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8BB0AD42D3F9A92B

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 23:57:25
 
dararith

Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 4 2010
From: Oakland, CA

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to tele) 
I think doing right-hand technique first would be good, just so you can be equipped (or be familiar) with material that's thrown at you when you're watching/learning compas/falsetas down the line.

Technique: I recommend learning a lot of thumb sweeps, getting comfortable with a good right-hand form to get a good flamenco sound (most can get the sound by playing near the bridge and using a lot of rest strokes so that there's intention and clarity with each note). Learning rasgueado technique with that clarity in mind would be good too (i.e. hearing each stroke with the desired volume clearly).

Compas: For something with some familiarity and even beats, try the 4 beat rhythms like Rumba or Tangos. Tangos is good since it typically goes from A to Bb chords...which you can use for other forms like Bulerias or Solea por Bulerias. You can also go straight into Solea since that rhythm is more unique due to its 12 count nature. Solea has a lot of versatility because you can play a simple Solea with a few basic techniques or you can fill the space with more complex ones since the tempo isn't too fast (compared to Bulerias).


Have fun!

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2012 3:40:56
 
FlamencoD

 

Posts: 113
Joined: Apr. 7 2012
From: Portland, OR

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to tele) 
As mentioned here, get an instructor. If you develop bad habits they will be hard to break and it will hold you back in your playing when you get more advanced. Then work on some of the previously mentioned palos or what your teacher suggests. Then graduate someday to Rondenas. That is a very beautiful style with alternate tuning (starting with the high e-b-f#-d-a-d). I particularly like Farrucas, too. 4/4 time and in minor, so a real nice sound. Some real lovely tremelo sections in Farrucas.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2012 4:13:31
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to Erik van Goch) 
i wonder if Vicente's technique is considered to be correct? i have a very similar hand build and technique and it can be very different from the regular masters' right hand technique, especially when it comes to arpeggios and picados...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2012 9:08:57
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
quote:

i wonder if Vicente's technique is considered to be correct? i have a very similar hand build and technique and it can be very different from the regular masters' right hand technique, especially when it comes to arpeggios and picados...


I'm new but even if a technique might not be traditional, I don't think it makes it incorrect? As long as it sounds good and flamenco?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2012 10:08:06
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to tele) 
absolutely, correct is not the good word here, but you know what i mean...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2012 14:24:52
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: xirdneH_imiJ

i wonder if Vicente's technique is considered to be correct? i have a very similar hand build and technique and it can be very different from the regular masters' right hand technique, especially when it comes to arpeggios and picados...



I don't consider it different at all. In fact when I was first learning flamenco his vids were some of the first I saw along with PDL and Manolo Sanlucar and Tomatito and a short clip of Nunez. I realized that they ALL did pretty much the same position. THe only unique thing of Vicente's right hand is his apoyando arpegios. But position and movements, setups etc all same as PDL/Sanlucar etc as per Niño RIcardo. (Actually in Rito you have Pepe Martinez doing the same, and he had a direct connection to MOntoya so the idea of hand position and way to play might predate N. Ricardo.) I refer to keeping hand/wrist flat and fingers bent and having to set up for picado to maintain overall same orientation to the strings.

Players that stand out as very different to me that do random mixing of bending the wrist etc are:
Sabicas
Morao (all of em, tio, Moraito, Diego do their own thing)
Cepero (only for picado really)
Melchor and Enrique (athough he does lots of PDL type things its like Cepero in sense the picado position changes)
GRisha and Javier Conde (javier has very similar things to Enrique del Melchor).

Easy way for me to tell is observing passages that change from arpegio to picado what happens to the wrist.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2012 14:46:23
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Learning flamenco... What style(... (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: xirdneH_imiJ

i wonder if Vicente's technique is considered to be correct? i have a very similar hand build and technique and it can be very different from the regular masters' right hand technique, especially when it comes to arpeggios and picados...



I don't consider it different at all. In fact when I was first learning flamenco his vids were some of the first I saw along with PDL and Manolo Sanlucar and Tomatito and a short clip of Nunez. I realized that they ALL did pretty much the same position. THe only unique thing of Vicente's right hand is his apoyando arpegios. But position and movements, setups etc all same as PDL/Sanlucar etc as per Niño RIcardo.
Ricardo



Totally agree, with one nuance: Vicente's arpegio is not unique for integrating apoyando techniques, but it is unique in playing the index finger apoyando as a rule. It's one of the tricks i use to sound more like him when i (try to) play (parts of) his tarantas.

Vicente happens to be a perfect example of the extremely relaxed (almost elastic) hand/finger approach i love so much.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2012 18:34:48
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