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RE: Does understanding letra help guitarists?   You are logged in as Guest
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machopicasso

 

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

...a quote of Paco de Lucia regarding cante accompaniment, that he did not even pay attention to lyrics the first 10 years he accompanied. Later the lyrics became his main focus when playing. Pretty relevant I think,...


I get that it's relevant for the discussion, but I'm not sure what you're taking away from that.

Is it that knowledge of the lyrics isn't necessary for the maestro to accompany? Or that the maestro came to realize the importance of knowing the lyrics?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2012 6:56:36
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to machopicasso) 
doesn't it mean that first and foremost you have to be able to accompany by ear regardless of the words, and that when you can do that, just listen to the words?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2012 9:21:03
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to machopicasso) 
quote:

Is it that knowledge of the lyrics isn't necessary for the maestro to accompany? Or that the maestro came to realize the importance of knowing the lyrics?


Well, exactly BOTH. 10 years is fairly long time to be "detached" from the meaning of the words. We can call that the training period that goes along with Sabicas' famous "20 years of cante, and 20 years of baile before becoming a soloist". And of course both are exaggerations, not literal statements. In other words, I gather, like I described early on in this thread, in order to focus on the music one might have to (or it's ok to) detach from the meaning of the words. Later as one has matured and the musical aspects become second nature, the beauty of the poetry can be focused on. I think it is fair to say that after 10 years of his career in flamenco, his accompaniment skills had peeked. His first record with his brother in 1963 then by 1973 he was already a matured masterful accompanist. It's argueable whether or not his playing (for cante, not his falsetas and composing style) in 80's for Camaron (only singer other than his brother we hear him play for) is superior to his very prolific accomp period in late 60's early 70's.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2012 13:37:14
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Ricardo) 
I have very much enjoyed the 2-CD set of Paco with Fosforito:

https://www.deflamenco.com/tiendaflamenco/ver.jsp?cod=1111

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2012 16:51:16
 
Munin

 

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Richard Jernigan) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

I have very much enjoyed the 2-CD set of Paco with Fosforito:

https://www.deflamenco.com/tiendaflamenco/ver.jsp?cod=1111

RNJ


Indeed! Some of the best stuff either of them have recorded.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2012 17:23:57
 
Tomrocker

Posts: 404
Joined: Apr. 18 2010
From: Italy

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Lonnie) 
quote:

Does understanding letra help guitar


YES!!!

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2012 20:25:59
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

It's argueable whether or not his playing (for cante, not his falsetas and composing style) in 80's for Camaron (only singer other than his brother we hear him play for) is superior to his very prolific accomp period in late 60's early 70's.


Really?! That's an interesting claim.

Is there an accompaniment album of PDL from the late 60's/early 70's that you'd recommend for the purpose of comparing with the stuff with Camaron from the 80's?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2012 7:23:58
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to machopicasso) 
quote:

Is there an accompaniment album of PDL from the late 60's/early 70's that you'd recommend for the purpose of comparing with the stuff with Camaron from the 80's?

The first 3 Camaron albums from that (late 60's/early 70's) era

_____________________________

"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2012 7:46:19
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to mezzo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: mezzo

quote:

Is there an accompaniment album of PDL from the late 60's/early 70's that you'd recommend for the purpose of comparing with the stuff with Camaron from the 80's?

The first 3 Camaron albums from that (late 60's/early 70's) era



Yep. Fosforito was just mentioned, I think 1969. Niño de Barbate from 1973 I think, and one of my all time favorites his album with Maria Vargas 1973.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2012 0:10:41
 
srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to machopicasso) 
I’ve never seen a satisfyingly complete late 60s/early 70s PdL accompaniment discography, which is too bad because there’re lots of recordings, and that’s all my favorite stuff, and I’m sure I’m missing out on certain titles. Whenever I listen to the playing on those records I always feel like I’m being reminded “Ah, that’s a textbook example of what this stuff is supposed to sound like.”

Both Barbate LPs were from ’71. He played for Lebrijano in 1970, an unlikely but cool pairing (I think Paco and Ricardo also recorded with Lebrijano the year previous, but I don’t have that one).

Full LPs with Juan de la Vara, Nina de la Puebla, Enrique Montoya, Naranjito de Triana, among the others mentioned here. I’m sure there are more, not to mention songs scattered here and there on EPs, and probably some uncredited, undated appearances from the days when they didn’t bother putting that stuff on the label.

Aside from the early Camaron records, it’s hard to beat the Fosforito and Maria Vargas material.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2012 1:23:40
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to srshea) 
quote:

I’ve never seen a satisfyingly complete late 60s/early 70s PdL accompaniment discography


trying to sort out piles of articles, interviews etc. this morning i came across a discography of Paco from 1963-1992, everything from solo albums to albums he played on one track of. i'll dig it back out later and scan it for you
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2012 13:11:04
 
dararith

Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 4 2010
From: Oakland, CA

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

I came across a great post of Richard Ogilby from some years back where he remembers a quote of Paco de Lucia regarding cante accompaniment, that he did not even pay attention to lyrics the first 10 years he accompanied. Later the lyrics became his main focus when playing.


That gives me hope! I'm already having a hard time keeping up with the phrasing, cues, tonal changes, aire, all while I'm tapping my foot in a regular interval to maintain some sanity in compas...on top of all of this, understanding the depths of the lyrics could be the straw that broke the camel's back. In the end, all of these factors are important and can only help a person improve, but depending on where our strengths/weaknesses are, we may need to focus on other things before we can tackle on the poetic analysis of each letra -- and for me, staying in compas comes first.

quote:

Aside from the early Camaron records, it’s hard to beat the Fosforito and Maria Vargas material.


I agree. That Fosforito album is pretty damn badass.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2012 3:39:11
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

and one of my all time favorites his album with Maria Vargas 1973


Does this album have a title?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2012 9:53:40
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

this morning i came across a discography of Paco from 1963-1992, everything from solo albums to albums he played on one track of. i'll dig it back out later and scan it for you


Please!!! That would be a big help.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2012 9:54:49
 
srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to machopicasso) 
quote:

Does this album have a title?

You can get it on a Fontana 2-fer titled ‘Maria Vargas y la Guitarra de Paco de Lucia,’ though only the first half of the CD is with Paco, the other half is a 1963 recording with Morao.

I think all those old records are just generically labeled “Colaboracion Especial” or “So and So y la Guitarra de ...”

quote:

this morning i came across a discography of Paco from 1963-1992, everything from solo albums to albums he played on one track of. i'll dig it back out later and scan it for you

Cool!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2012 16:18:11
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to srshea) 
i can't guarantee that this is either totally correct or absolutely exhaustive, but here's what i got





Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2012 22:43:58
 
srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to mark indigo) 
Cool, that fills in some gaps, but yeah, there's still plenty left of the list, Maria Vargas, Barbate, one of the Lebrijano recordings, etc. As the disclaimer sez: "comprehensive" but not "exhaustive" (which is kind of a cop out )

Thanks for scanning this!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 0:02:22
 
gmburns

Posts: 157
Joined: Nov. 20 2012
 

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to machopicasso) 
Can I ask a fairly n00bish question: how much of the letras are improvisation and how much are consistent with various styles? In other words, if a singer paying attention more to the music, then, to me, that means he or she is changing on the fly. But if that's the case, how much does he or she stay within a certain framework, so to speak, of the style and poetry?

Does that make sense?

Good thread

edit: and are there are there any famous lines, lyrics, or songs that are really important to know?

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Greg Mason Burns - Artist
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2012 14:31:52
 
etta

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2012 15:36:02
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to gmburns) 
I asked a similar question and the thread became very informative.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=209346&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=must%2Cknow%2Ccante&tmode=&smode=&s=#209346

There's another good thread.......I'll find it.
Here she is:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=209469&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=top%2C200

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 4 2012 22:43:21
 
faustoitur

 

Posts: 7
Joined: Jul. 16 2012
 

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Ricardo) 
Flamenco Repertoire- Analisys of the flamenco song "El Cante" (Book/CD) - María Jesús Castro is a necessary guidelines to carry out the analysis of a flamenco audition according to the different parameters which make up a musical work, by way of numerous exercises, analytical commentary, schematic outlines and listening. It helps you to undertant the "letras"


http://www.storemusic-live.com/FichaArticulo~x~Flamenco-Repertoire-Analisys-of-the-flamenco-song-El-Cante-Book-CD-Maria-Jesus~IDArticulo~870~lang~EN.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 26 2012 18:50:16
 
zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to faustoitur) 
The short answer to this thread's title is, understanding letras does not *help* guitarists any more than breathing in and out *helps* us stay alive. It is an absolute necessity.

There's no other reliable way to distinguish 3-line verses from 4-line ones, which in turn broadcasts the arrival of the "cambio" portion (in soleá, bulerías, tangos family, etc.). Raise your hand everyone who ever jumped the gun or came in late with a cambio...it's a mistake even beginning Spaniards rarely make because they can't avoid listening to the verse.

In siguiriyas, which doesn't use octosyllabic lines, it's also helpful to take note of the verse because they tend to be traditional ones, so certain key words act as road markers letting you know where you are at any given moment.

The good news is you don't necessarily need to understand the words, but rather wreck a nice them .

More good news for the language-challenged: the fandango family, which includes many palos and many hundreds of verses can be accompanied without paying attention to the verse since the sung format (repeats, waits, etc) doesn't really vary.

_____________________________

Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2013 15:47:20
 
jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to zata) 
This is a very important question.

The most important thing in flamenco is 'sentir el cante' (feel the singing). Guitar is secondary. If there is a singuer or dancer, guitrists is just a supporting actor. The worst concert guitarist could be a good 'tocaor', accompaning if he feels the singing.

Flamenco singing requires a really hard effort both phisical and mental. Much more than guitar. The training of the singer is so hard than guitarist training. He has to fit in 'compás' the lyrics, taking in account his limits because breathing and rythm control is sometimes more complicate than in opera. Each musical unit of the singer is called 'tercio' and it is quite similar to long falsetas. This musical unit can be an stanza or a sentence of a stanza.

In classical falmenco singer and guitarist choose tercios and falsetas randomly, improvising, like a Lego .

Playing and singing together, the cantaor and the tocaor (guitarist and singuer) establish an special dialog. In palos 'jondos' (deep) it is critical. Guitarist has to create an adequate enviroment for the singer and then he has to support the singing as counterpoint.

If you understand what the singer is doing it will be better, If you can understand the poetry it will be much better and if you can understand how the singer in feeling the song much, much better. In this way, a guitarist that does smooth counterpoints can be 100 times better than a skillfull guitarists witouth this knowledge.

I'll give you a good example of video and its lyrics. See the easy counterpoint of Riqueni and how he is pending of Carmen Linares continously:

Lyrics (taranta style):

Ayyyy ... (Tuning of the singer)

Toitos le llaman La Santa
A la hija de la tia Agustina
Toitos le llaman La Santa
Se va a la boca de la mina
a rezarle a una esperanza perdida

English translation.

All them call her The Saint
to the daughter of 'Tia Agustina'
All them call her The Saint
She goes to the mine entry
praying to the lost hopes. (In spain prisioners were usually condemned in mines)



I hope you enjoy it!

_____________________________

Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!

Sing and string - other flamenco blog
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2014 22:39:23
 
zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to jmb) 
quote:

Each musical unit of the singer is called 'tercio'


Actually, "tercio" refers to the poetic line, not the musical unit. Most flamenco verses are composed of three lines, hence, each one is a "tercio", which means "third". And even though there are nearly as many 4-line verses, and certainly plenty of 5-line ones (fandango family), we still call each poetic line a tercio. A single tercio may occupy less than one whole compás, or any number of compases.

_____________________________

Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2014 22:59:29
 
jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to zata) 
Thanks Zata. A pleasure to talk with an authority as you!.

With musical unit (for the singer) I was refering to the definition that I read from the flamencogist José Manuel Gamboa. Usually, A tercio, like in solea, for example, is a stanza (3 or 4 verses or more, because replayed verses are usual) as you say, but in malagueña it could be just a verse of th stanza.

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Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!

Sing and string - other flamenco blog
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2014 23:18:19
 
zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to jmb) 
Gamboa is a good friend, and he knows a tercio is a single poetic line, not a complete verse or a musical segment. Could it possibly be something that was lost in translation? Maybe even a dictionary definition not used among flamencos (?)

_____________________________

Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2014 7:53:53
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to zata) 
Yes

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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2014 22:25:46
 
jmb

Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to machopicasso) 
Thanks for the clarification!

I found that I had missunderstanded it from this definition in Radioole briefing "Flamenco de A la Z" with introduction of Gamboa.

http://www.radiole.com/especiales/enciclopedia_flamenco/musica_flamenco_estructura.html

"Tercio: verso o letra de un cante que tiene una entidad musical determinada. Así en la soleá el primer tercio es la primera letra y en una malagueña el primer tercio corresponde al primer verso melódico."

best regards

_____________________________

Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!

Sing and string - other flamenco blog
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 1 2014 12:52:32
 
zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to jmb) 
It's a garbled definition, if only because it implies "tercio" means something different in soleá as opposed to malagueña. Sometimes you even hear "verso" used as a synonym for "tercio", both meaning a single poetic line, as in the sentence: "soleá may have 3 or 4 versos, (tercios), while malagueña usually has 5 (tercios)".

In order to refer to a complete poetic unit of 3, 4 or 5 lines (tercios), it's become fashionable to use the word "cuerpo", especially in contest rules which specify how many "cuerpos" of each cante must be interpreted.

_____________________________

Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 1 2014 16:09:44
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to machopicasso) 
Well after all the effort trying to describe what constitutes a line of verse or an entire letra etc, we can tell a good accompanist simply from how he or she deals with the "ayyyyy" part from the get go. The linguist/poet/flamencologist can't accompany or even distinguish without a musical ear and ability. Simple fact is you can actually find individuals that can accompany that don't speak fluently.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2014 13:53:48
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