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RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made?
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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 RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to z6)
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quote:
Mr. Blackshear, I particuarly enjoyed hearing about how your guitars only work with one brand of string.
I compared these things for a few years and had to put a warning, just recently, about the possible distortion of using other string brands.
There are other makers who have to give instructions about their guitars with certain idiosyncratic manners. This is not new but has been a tried condition with players trying to find the right strings for their guitars for a long time.
I make it simple and give the right string set, D'Addario EJ46 for my guitars when they are new, since they are fine tuned to them.
And for the sound port issue. I had this discussion with Roger Thurman years ago when he first came out with his design. He approached me to use it for better volume and audio feed back but I found his design to be too intrusive with my traditional approach.
Anyway, I felt my guitars were loud enough. I was building almost exclusively, the Miguel Rodriguez design, which were loud guitars to begin with.
Then Bob Ruck came out with his own idea of a sound port but his design was less noticeable than Roger's design. And this went on for awhile until Bob started giving a plug of sorts for the people who didn't care for the extra hole. Now, it seems that this trend is relaxing a little and going back to the traditional motif.
I personally don't care for the added appearance on a traditional model, that I build, and I believe the extra port releases sound too fast for it to be homogenized into a more complex voicing. But for those who appreciate a guitar that has more power, something akin to an old freight train, or an old inverted vacuum cleaner, then go for it, if that is what turns you on.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Aug. 23 2012 12:38:47
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z6
Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
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RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Thanks for the clarification Mr. Blackshear.
But surely such a strong recommendation, indeed a 'warning' of possible distortion means that one buys a Blackshear to match a string. Isn't this putting the cart before the horse on a cosmic scale? Nothing wrong with recommending a string but what if the company goes out of business? Are purchasers then consigned forever to 'distortion'?
I can't help thinking it's a marketing ploy that needs a little more thought. My guess is that your guitars sound swell with any strings attached.
As for the saga of the soundport: The original poster has already made up his mind that he wants one. He's already had some rational-sounding advice from a luthier, and Alan Carruth's analysis covered the Dan Dare scientific bit.
He came here to hear what he wanted to hear, ergo; if I lacerate my guitar will I regret it? No, no, they cried. It's marvellous, better than sex, etc.
But all the arguments in favour sound exacty the same as arguments that could be made in favour of any guitar, with or without the frontal lobotomy.
I have the exact same reaction as Florian has when he takes out his guitar, even though mine is the antiquated, second-holeless version. Deniz says he just has to listen, to use his ears. But he can only use his ears after he has made a gaping hole in the thing. Getting it 'unholed' if his ears turn out nonplussed is beyond tricky.
Could not one achieve the same effect by swiping a stethoscope from the doctor's office and taping the cold part to the side of the guitar? Or how about welding one of those old gramophone horns to a bicycle helmet and feeding the sound to earphones?
A high tech version might be buying one of those little mics to plug into an iphone and listening while one plays.
I don't see how any of this can be down to 'errors' or misinformation. It's a hole in the side of the guitar. What is there to know about such a thing?
Would anyone here, if they owned a 50,000 dollar masterpiece, drill a hole into it, even if the hole made it 'sound' better to the player?
So much emphasis on sound or the hole itself when the only issue is resale value and/or whether one likes the look of extra holes in the guitar.
I have a guitar that has a beautiful sound but what really matters to me, miles and miles beyond that, is how it feels. That's why I'll never own a Blackshear, for example, because I like slippery strings, and I want to be able to buy the cheapest ones that are in tune and slippery.
Whether a soundport 'works' or not matters not a jot; that's a personal decision. But if it should prove to be a 'fad' then a decent guitar might end up completely worthless. Just because there are a few knocking around here doesn't mean the design will survive in any meaningful commercial or artistic way. It's a risk.
It really is worth remembering this when waxing lyrical to a guy with a drill in his hands listening to the song of the sirens.
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Date Aug. 23 2012 15:37:08
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to z6)
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quote:
I have a guitar that has a beautiful sound but what really matters to me, miles and miles beyond that, is how it feels. That's why I'll never own a Blackshear, for example, because I like slippery strings, and I want to be able to buy the cheapest ones that are in tune and slippery.
Ah come on, now! You won't buy a Blackshear because you like slippery trebles??
The person who just bought my latest model said, that the trebles were very shiney; his discription. But the articulation is something that I find necessary, especially for a flamenco guitar, tighter for the right hand with a good snaping sensation along with a flat left hand ligado, not bouncey.
So I think that you may put too much emphasis on strings to make a guitar sound and feel like you want, instead of playing a guitar that has it's own delivery with proper tuning.
Check out another Blackshear guitar he played, similar to the one he bought.
http://savageclassical.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/120705_tomblackshear_318_reyes_braz.mp3
And again, the voice is so finely tuned for treble and bass response that a sound port would ruin it.
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Date Aug. 23 2012 17:42:46
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z6
Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
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RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Apologies Deniz, perhaps I wasn't clear:
There is a real effect. That effect is only psychological in the sense that the only person who gets to hear the real effect is the player.
Therefore, the soundport (like my stethoscope/gramophone horn designs) is like Dumbo's feather, no? My designs do not hurt the guitar in any way, they simply demonstrate to the onlooker what is really taking place.
Try the stethoscope design if you can't find a gramophone horn handy and tell me it isn't the most efficient, cost-effective improvement one can perform on a guitar... and the guitar doesn't even have to suffer.
That sounds ruder than intended but I want to be clear, just in case you guys get looked up by people who then go on to lobotomize their guitars. The guy who came looking for affirmation here hadn't made his mind up years ago. He wanted to know if it would 'work' as a customization, now, and after a luthier had expressed serious misgivings.
Indeed, some people think once or twice or many times. And some people don't think about resale values and some do.
I'm not talking here about customizations, in general, that might affect resale value. I'm only referring to cutting a hole in the side when there is already a perfectly good hole cut in the front.
You didn't answer on the 'deholeing' issue. It would leave marks, at best, right? Would you really do it to the world's best, most expensive guitar?
Let's be clear. You guys are talking about something very profound here... a simple alteration that will improve any and every guitar. Any and every guitar. Think once or twice or three times about that, if you will.
Did/do the masters not build good enough guitars that all we have to do is cut another hole in them to improve them?
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Date Aug. 23 2012 19:54:29
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HolyEvil
Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia
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RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to z6)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: z6
I'm not really disagreeing on any of your conclusions. To me it just seems quite a radical thing to do for something that is, in the end, psychological (in the sense that most people strongly imply that the improvement is something that only the player hears). And with such cheerleading for the port directed at someone evidently predisposed to have his guitar operated upon, I thought it important to point out that a guitar that would achieve 'x' dollars in the market before the op may suffer a devaluation. Holyevil didn't say how much his guitar was worth but he did say the luthier was against doing it because his guitar was 'nice'.
Even if we plan to never sell our precious guitars, knowingly taking the risk that we might hack a chunk off the value should give some pause for thought. For example, if it is a guitar built by a maker who regularly sells guitars with ports then the market should hold, but my example of a 'great' guitar can be applied to any guitar where a port is an 'unusual' customization.
But I can see that if he takes the plunge he does have plenty of like minds here to ease any lingering doubts (which he displayed by the act of posting here after getting what sounded like sound advice).
I do realise that resale value might come up to people's mind, but I seriously have never thought of it, because I really lucked out when I bought this guitar, the sound and feel is both awesome. It's a brazillian negra by David Macias bought from Orson on this foro.
I was just afraid of affecting the sound (after the advice from the luthier).
That's why I after receiving the advice not to do it on my current guitar, I sought advice here about their thoughts.
I do appreciately all the replies here both pro/against it. I'm not an expert, so I like to hear other views.
If someone does get a soundport on their guitar after it is made, I believe it's totally within their right to do it, as it's their guitar.
And if there's something we can do to improve the sound/playability of a guitar that has already been made, why not.
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Date Aug. 23 2012 23:21:55
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to HolyEvil)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HolyEvil
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
don't do it.
If you want to hear more guitar from your vantage point (the only point of a soundport) when practicing, simply play closer to a door, wall, mirror, or other flat reflective surface.
If you like they way they look, then decide if you may want to sell your guitar in the future or not first.
this was suggested to me by the luthier. Bathroom, wall, close my doors etc.
and i actually dislike the look of a soundport prior to playing one with it. Now I don't mind it.
and why did you say 'don't do it', have you had a bad experience with it? please share!!
Without following the entire thread, I would have assumed that someone linked old discussions where I related my feeling. Glancing over the new thread, again, I feel Im in the minority on the issue that they don't improve sound. Rather than look up old topics I retell about Ruck's guitar.
Ruck flamenco negra he gave to Gerardo in 2004 in sanlucar had two ports, one on each side of the neck on the sides. I was told he had been building guitars with ports for years so it was not a new weird thing. I experimented with it and heard it played by others. It came with "plugs" that you can remove to do objective test (as Jason did with his hand in an old topic). What I found was bottom hole not much difference, a little, top hole was obviously different. Both holes plugged guitars sounded amazing. Un plugg top and the sound and bass or perceived volume comes up, but with it a "Nasal" tone.....intstinct forces me to adjust right hand to get a more focused sound to compensate for this. Plugged up holes everying was back to normal.
Sitting in front of others with eyes shut to see if I was crazy, I felt there was some small difference. Again, with player right hand compensating it becomes a see saw. I also have accoustic electrics that when you open the pre amp casing you get a nice soundport to play around with....same deal. My conclusion has always been that the focused directional sound is changed, and I dont' see a point for that if it makes me want to also adjust my right hand for sake of sound in my head. Its a hair splitting issue, but again its enough for me not to get into them. Perhaps I am old fashioned, I got no problem with that. Why they are popular I feel is same reason any loud bright and bassy guitar impresses people at first. Its MORE sound, but not for me a "better" sound. Similarly when dealing with live sound so many players end up scooping mids out so the flamenco guitar sounds like amazing huge punchy bright blasting thing like heavy metal. I prefer flat as possible with good mids. Acoustically I gravitate to tight, not so loud, more midrangy focused voiced instruments myself. So it's just taste in the end as with everything guitar related.
If someone built me or offered me to perform with a ported guitar, I would simply cover the hole with tape, wood, stuff a sock into it, whatever I could do to focus the sound forward and enjoy playing normally. 
Ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Aug. 24 2012 18:50:40
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KMMI77
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
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RE: Soundport AFTER guitar made? (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Un plugg top and the sound and bass or perceived volume comes up, but with it a "Nasal" tone.....intstinct forces me to adjust right hand to get a more focused sound to compensate for this. Plugged up holes everying was back to normal.
Sitting in front of others with eyes shut to see if I was crazy, I felt there was some small difference. Again, with player right hand compensating it becomes a see saw. I also have accoustic electrics that when you open the pre amp casing you get a nice soundport to play around with....same deal. My conclusion has always been that the focused directional sound is changed, and I dont' see a point for that if it makes me want to also adjust my right hand for sake of sound in my head. Its a hair splitting issue, but again its enough for me not to get into them. Perhaps I am old fashioned, I got no problem with that. Why they are popular I feel is same reason any loud bright and bassy guitar impresses people at first. Its MORE sound, but not for me a "better" sound. Similarly when dealing with live sound so many players end up scooping mids out so the flamenco guitar sounds like amazing huge punchy bright blasting thing like heavy metal. I prefer flat as possible with good mids. Acoustically I gravitate to tight, not so loud, more midrangy focused voiced instruments myself. So it's just taste in the end as with everything guitar related.
That's very well explained Ricardo. I noticed the same thing on the guitar we experimented with. I have to agree that the nasal sound was distracting for me as well. I guess over time i could get used to it. But that being said, any changes to the actual guitars "character sound" was indistinguishable to my ear. Overall, the guitars sound seemed less focused from the playing position due to the new nasal hum.
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Date Aug. 25 2012 10:54:05
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