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Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Ron.M)
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Thanks, Ron!
For anyone interested in reading about the Islamic period in Spain, I think the best work I have come across is "The Ornament of the World," by Maria Rosa Menocal. This book chronicles the tolerant culture of Islamic Spain, particularly Al Andalus, where Christians, Jews, and Muslims lived together in comparative harmony. Al Andalus's tolerant culture set it apart from the intolerance one found in both Christian Europe and the Muslim Arab World. A great work of history and culture about a special time and place.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 5 2012 18:22:22
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
As for tolerance, it's not simply a case of Islamic Spain = tolerance. For sure in many respects Islamic Spain was more advanced than the rest of Europe, and in some ways more tolerant. But this varied through the different eras of Islamic rule, from the Caliphate to the Tarifa states and afterwards things got less tolerant. And there were still sometimes pogroms against Jews (eg.in Granada in the 11th Century), and both Jews and Christians were subject to higher taxes etc.
Have you also read Richard Fletcher's Moorish Spain?
And btw "Al Andalus" is not the same as modern Andalucia; it in fact meant the same thing as Islamic Spain, so at it's greatest extent "Al Andalus" covered almost the entire peninsula, and at the end it was just the province/kingdom of Granada.
Good points, Mark. I did not want to get too detailed, but to expand on your point about tolerance. During the period of the Islamic conquests, Christians and Jews were protected as "people of the book" and were known as "dhimmi." Nevertheless, they had to pay a special tax and were restricted from engaging in certain activities. They could not ride a horse, carry a sword, hold high office, etc. In other words, they were pretty much second class citizens. That, however, was a better fate than others received: either converting to Islam or being put to the sword. And, as you point out, that tolerance did not last as subsequent, more hard-line Islamists took over.
Nevertheless, while I think that Islamic tolerance in Al Andalus is sometimes over-rated, it was a pretty good bet, given the standards of the times.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 6 2012 19:38:58
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to kudo)
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quote:
Where's your reference on this?? This is straight up obvious big lie that they fed into you !!
Read any history of the Muslim conquests, from the initial conquest of the Near East (where lands were taken from the Byzantine Empire), to the Muslim advance West and conquest of Egypt, Sicily, parts of Italy, North Africa, and Spain. The Dhimmi, or "People of the Book" (Arabic: Ahl al-Kitab) were treated with tolerance (although still treated as second class citizens), while those who were not "People of the Book" were dealt with harshly and given the choice of conversion or death. Of course, most converted in order to avoid the alternative (although in many cases it was a "conversion of convenience").
Spain under Islam, particularly under the Caliphate of Cordoba, was the most tolerant of all. The period of tolerance in Spain (Al Andalus) has been referred to as the "convivencia." That changed under the rise of the Almohades, who imposed an extremely harsh version of Islam on Al Andalus. Under the Almohades, there were even massacres of "People of the Book." For example, in December 1066, there was a massacre of 4,000 Jews in Granada, an event that the historian Walter Laqueur has called a pogrom. It apparently was precipitated by an ode that referred to Jews as "apes," a reference to the Qur'anic verse that allegedly refers to Jews as "apes" and "pigs."
For references on Arab and Islamic history, I suggest Bernard Lewis, Walter Laqueur, and Albert Hourani, but there are many other fine historians from which to choose.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 7 2012 3:12:39
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to kudo)
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It is impossible to have a serious discussion in the face of such a shrill, unhinged diatribe. You reveal a lot about yourself in paragraph 2, when you refer to all who do not accept Islam, "especially Christians and Jews," as "unbelievers" (infidels). Unfortunately, those who are biased against Islam, and know little about it, will have their belief further confirmed by your shrill rant. Infidels indeed!
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 8 2012 8:54:13
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
This sentence is wrong since those who are "biased against islam" in the first place can pick whatever arbitrary aspect they want as a so called confirmation. Besides being wrong it is also mean to blame the victims of being targeted by whatever biased theory. If anything then the producers of such theory are to blame. Combining this with your assumption in another thread that poor people would have be to blamed themselves for their poverty, i come to the conclusion that what you aspire to be a "serious discussion" is nothing but cynicism on your part.
As usual, Deniz, you get it wrong again. Those who are biased against Islam may be able to"pick whatever arbitrary aspect they want as a so-called confirmation," but Kudo's disgusting, shrill rant against "Christians and Jews" and "unbelievers" will provide them with one more point of confirmation in their belief.
I challenge you to point out my quote that "poor people woould have to be blamed themselves for their poverty." You will be unable to meet that challenge, because I never said such nonsense. I stated that many people's financial and economic condition is due to their own irresponsible choices and actions; they don't save for today in order to have more tomorrow; they want instant gratification. I did not say "most" people, and I did not say all "poor people" have themselves to blame for their condition.
You obviously think you cannot win a debate without falsifying statements others have made in order to appear as if you are making the rational argument. You have been called out on your falsification of my previous statements. I suggest that if you want to be taken seriously, you cease setting up false "straw men" and meet the challenge of debate based on the merits of your own arguments.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 8 2012 19:21:29
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Doitsujin)
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Actually, this thread was a reasonable discussion of how Al-Andalus was a relatively tolerant society under Islam for much of its history (given the standards of the time), although that did change. The thread then took a rather violent turn for the worse when a Foro member detonated a rhetorical bomb, blaming everyone from Christians, Jews, and "Unbelievers" to Historians, past and present, for every perceived slight and insult, real or imagined, he apparently thinks has occurred. I note, however, that he has since deleted his post and it has been moved to the Recycle Bin, where such bile and hate-filled rhetoric belongs.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 9 2012 2:00:29
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Stepping Stones of Islamic Spain (in reply to Leñador)
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quote:
I guess as all threads seem to do it took it's own direction
Threads often go off in directions not anticipated at the beginning. But that is what makes for an interesting conversation. One thing leads to another, and someone has a thought that sends it off in another direction, which brings in others with ideas. Just as in face-to-face conversations and discussions, threads should reflect rational, reasonable temperments, even when there are disagreements. Participants should not take disagreements personally, and they certainly should not get wrapped around the axle and start detonating rhetorical bombs with hate-filled shrapnel flying in all directions.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 9 2012 3:53:43
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