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Kevin Cloud

 

Posts: 7
Joined: Jul. 18 2012
From: Berkeley, California

Thoughts on the cajón 

Hola Flamencos!
I make master-quality cajones in Berkeley, California. Luthier Stephen Faulk suggested I join the foro and share a little about my instruments and cajones in general... I've looked around the forums a little and I wish I'd been around when some of the earlier cajon conversations were happening!

I've been studying and building cajones since 2006, inspired by my friend John Martin lll of Cerro Negro. After decades as a musician and a fine woodworker, and a few years building Celtic harps with Chris Caswell, I still had to build about 15 before I started to feel happy with the results. Since then I've made and sold about 150, and at this point I believe there is no finer high-end modern-style cajón than a Berkeley Box... www.berkeleyboxworks.com ...The only others that are close, IMO, are Patrick Oliver's popercussion out of Germany, but Schlagwerks is pretty good (also German) and Gon Bops and Fat Congas are coming along ;-)

That said, though I love flamenco and have many friends in the flamenco world, I am not a flamenco and I don't (yet) build instruments in the modern flamenco style a la Mario Cortés. But here's most of what I know about the instrument:

The cajón comes from 1820s Peru originally but modern instruments have evolved greatly. There are 3 or 4 main styles: Peruano, Flamenco, and Modern, with various permutations of each. I'm leaving the cajón Cubano out of this discussion as it's a fundamentally different instrument.

The original Peruano style instrument has a very solid five-sided wooden shell ie top, bottom, sides, and back, with a thinner head on the front and soundhole at the back. The classic style has a fully glued head and does not have snares. A varient emulates a snare sound by attaching the playing head very loosely with screws, producing a rattling sound. Both these instruments have very little presence in the bass and are generally pretty dead-sounding: they have to be pummelled pretty hard to get any kind of rich sounds out of them, and the classic style in particular is really only popular for traditional Afro-Peruvian music, which after all has evolved with this cajon at its heart. The most modern variant is a sort of junky mass-produced box with cheaply-engineered snare-wires or snares made from metal combs. In my opinion these sound terrible, but YMMV ;-)

The Spanish flamenco style uses guitar strings inside the instrument for snares, and the single playing head is usually glued to the 5-sided shell, sound-hole is still at the back... it is built very lightly with the shell of 7-9mm plywood and an internal frame, and has not much bass tone, but the very dry sounds fit nicely into flamenco orchestration. Mario Cortés is the best known maker of this style, which, as I've said, has a pretty dry sound, and generally won't get loud unless you really pound on it. People will talk about the Flamenco tradition of cajón, but cajón has only been used in Flamenco since about 1980 so it's a pretty slim tradition... of course, people have been drumming on boxes ever since the box was invented ;-)

What I'm calling the 'modern' style is like the Flamenco style but built more solidly, with a 12mm 4-sided shell, two glued heads and the sound hole on one side. The glued heads (front and back) couple acoustically for a powerful bass tone, and the snares are usually a bit more 'engineered'. My instruments (and Patrick's) are designed to be super-responsive to finger-tip playing, allowing a wide pallette of very rich tones even at very low volume. Again, mine are literally the best you can get, and go for around $4-500 US... after me Patrick's popercussion makes the best, and Schlagwerks are pretty decent.

"Modern" style is great for all styles of music and perfectly good for flamenco, but because of how responsive these instruments are it's VERY easy for an over-enthusiastic player to overwhelm the orchestration. Jason McGuire played a few of my boxes a couple of years ago and made the valuable comment that he especially liked the baritone ergo-box because the low-end 'boom' is BELOW the guitar and thus doesn't conflict :-) Likewise, apropos of the thread "Is Cajon for guitar players?", in which user rodrigovalt wondered if playing the cajón would mess up his hands, the modern-style, because of its responsiveness, is fine for guitar players as the movements and impacts are probably actually less violent than right-hand flamenco technique or palmas ;-)

One last word about the cajón business: in about 2006 a large German manufacturer of cymbals and drum-hardware whose name rhymes with 'spinal' suddenly flooded the market with cheap cajones that sound terrible and were built because their accountants recognized a market. Many people have bought these instruments, and because of the randomness of mass-production a small percentage of them actually sound kind of good, but noone would really consider them a 'fine instrument'. Likewise other manufacturers whose names rhyme with 'chemo', 'hurl', and 'kelpee': big businesses that figured they should get a piece of the action. A number of them are now offering 'signature' models from Spanish cajoneros which are somewhat better, but all are still made in factories by worker-drones. OTOH, Schlagwerks, Popercussion, Berkeley Boxworks, and some other businesses were created by cajoneros, real instrument-makers who want to build cajones, and an instrument built by a person who cares about it will be better, as all you guitarists know :-) ...plus, of course, giving your $$ to instrument-makers is better than giving it to shareholders!

I hope this is helpful, and I haven't broken any forum rules with it, long as it is. I love the cajón and I love flamenco! best wishes to all,
-kc
www.berkeleyboxworks.com
www.facebook.com/berkeley.boxworks.cajon.drums.plus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 1:21:04
 
RTC

Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Kevin Cloud

Nice website and beautiful Cajons.
Wish you continued success!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 2:57:31
 
Kevin Cloud

 

Posts: 7
Joined: Jul. 18 2012
From: Berkeley, California

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to RTC

Thank you, RTC... if you didn't look at the videos on the facebook page, you should, especially "Tobias demos": he's a wonderful player and really gets the sounds out :-)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 5:50:53
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Kevin Cloud

My "thoughts on the cajon" are that althought you may have nice instruments there, whats with the "everyone else sucks, there are 2 or 3 almost as good but Iam the master" attitude?

Kind of a turnoff...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 11:05:54
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Sr. Martins

El cajon en flamenco es un mamarracho: hace flamenquito de flamenco. " palmeros siemple suenan mejor.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 11:25:32
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Kevin Cloud

Nice intro and welcome. :)
Since you seem experienced, may i ask what exactly to look for when testing a cajon? Are there special patterns and techniques to test a cajon, like it is on the guitar (picado bursts, rasgeados, golpes,..).

LoL Morante, err Sean i mean ;) Your split personality just kills me man

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 11:31:16
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Kevin Cloud

interesting to have cajón player (and maker ) here , i dont know if there are others ...

I dont exactly agree with Morante though , I think that the cajón has its place in flamenco , as do palmas etc..it all depends on the mood , ......digo yo .....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 13:22:34
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to XXX

I do´nt have a split personality. I have lived in Andalucía for 20 years and love real flamenco, that´s why I am a member of the Peña de Juan Villar, which is dedicated to cante. I have produced two records of cante of the two finest and neglected cantaores del cante de Cádiz, neither with cajón. One is now unable to speak after a throat operation, the other is dead. These records will be emblematico in the history of Cadiz cante.

Flamenquito bores me and then I prefer Cambalache Jazz Club or I just go back home and play the blues on my great Alhambra acoustic.

My dream is to have enough money to open a flamenco bar, where only the best cantaores would perform. The name would be "Bar Sincajones". In Cádiz, where guasa rules, everybody would call it "Bar Sin cojones"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 14:31:48
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Morante

To me, the cajon can have its place but I agree that it sounds a bit "towards the soundhole" most of the time.

I "HATE" bass on 99% of flamenco records, mainly because there's this trend of playing it in the higher register which isnt really the traditional role/space of the bass and ends up sounding like... yeah, soundhole

OTOH, listen to Jose Leon's bass sound... deep, powerful and doesnt get in the way of anything else.


I guess cajon is cool if the player knows his place but only in certain flamenco genres (mainly the ones that tend to be 15cm away from the bone).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 15:19:29
 
nhills

Posts: 230
Joined: Jul. 13 2003
From: West Des Moines, IA USA

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Kevin Cloud

The cajón is second only to the "ya-ya" girls, of things I thoroughly dislike about "new" flamenco or Flamenquito. I don't listen to it.

Norman

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." - Santos Hernandez (as translated by R. Brune)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 15:20:07
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Kevin Cloud

I like it in bulerias and tangos but not like VA does. I like cajon when it sounds like a guitar, not when its bassy smooth.. ends up sounding like chill out music. Add some cymbals and its total gayness

Get a drumkit for hucks sake!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 15:36:18
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Morante

quote:

In Cádiz, where guasa rules, everybody would call it "Bar Sin cojones"


good idea , I would come to that bar , but leave my cojones outside in the car .......¿vale ?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 15:56:36
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Morante

quote:

My dream is to have enough money to open a flamenco bar, where only the best cantaores would perform. The name would be "Bar Sincajones". In Cádiz, where guasa rules, everybody would call it "Bar Sin cojones"


I laughed so hard when I read this this morning. I hope you get that bar open, I want to get a copa of guasa and hear cante'.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 17:13:06
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

I "HATE" bass on 99% of flamenco records, mainly because there's this trend of playing it in the higher register which isnt really the traditional role/space of the bass and ends up sounding like... yeah, soundhole


I often hear electric bass in flamenco as farting sounds.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 17:14:48
 
aarongreen

 

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Kevin Cloud

quote:


I often hear electric bass in flamenco as farting sounds.


Only in flamenco?




Only Kidding, Bootsie is the Man
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 17:23:40
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Kevin Cloud

quote:

good idea , I would come to that bar , but leave my cojones outside in the car .......¿vale ?


Hah! My girlfriend has my cajones so I'll go.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 17:56:29
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Kevin Cloud

You're all a bunch of castrati. If you want to sing at that bar, make sure the capo is at the 12th fret... at least
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 18:36:11
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Morante

Applauding your flamenco vita, but i was actualy meaning the constant language switch here . It would make sense to just use English or, and that would be actually my favorite, write every post in a different language. Might be forced to use an online translator, but the troll potential would be worth it IMO. Apropos trolling, this thread is hilarious i hope the OP isnt completely p*ssed off by this forum.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 4 2012 19:02:54
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Kevin Cloud

Go easy on the OP, he does not know all the flamenco "rules" yet.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 2:16:32
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I often hear electric bass in flamenco as farting sounds.


I can tolerate the cajon in flamenco, but I cannot stand the bass. The bass in his entourage was one of the main reasons I was not enthralled with Paco de Lucia's performance in Washington, DC.

Cheers,

Bill

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With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 3:49:14
 
srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Kevin Cloud

Thoughts on the cajon? Yeah, of course. I do some of my best thinking on the cajon.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 4:06:38
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I often hear electric bass in flamenco as farting sounds.


Stephen, further to my previous post on this subject, please don't give anyone ideas. I can just see someone placing a high school tuba player on stage with a flamenco guitarist in an effort to be "experimental."

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 6:54:27
 
Kevin Cloud

 

Posts: 7
Joined: Jul. 18 2012
From: Berkeley, California

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Kevin Cloud

Hi Guys, thanks for the good feedback and good question :-)
I play mostly middle-eastern music, mostly on the oud, and I have a lot of appreciation for both "the drummer problem" and the importance of preserving and extending clean traditions and preventing them from being displaced by 'innovation'. Just remember: drums don't kill sessions, drummers do ;-)

I'm sorry if anything I said sounded arrogant. I have played hundreds of cajones from scores of makers and feel somewhat qualified to comment on cajones in general, but I'm not expert about the Peruano or Flamenco-style instruments, only this type I've been calling "modern" but which I think I should start calling "Doble" for the double heads. The Doble-style instruments are a fairly new development and not that many people are making them. Among them, as far as I am aware, Patrick's and mine are the best, and many cajon-players have told me so.

I like the Doble-style better than the others because with adjustments to tuning and technique it can produce all the sounds of the Peruano OR the Flamenco-style and more, and, as I said, is super-responsive to finger-tip playing, allowing a wide pallette of very rich tones even at very low volume.

I haven't disparaged any 'true' cajoneros, but really, there are a lot of very crappy cajones out there and I do resent these large manufacturing-concerns that have flooded the market. If the Fender company suddenly flooded the market with thousands of $400 'Flamenco' guitars made in southeast-asian factories, I imagine some guitarreros would feel the same ;-)

Deniz, you asked a great question that I'm still thinking about: I'll try to give you my best answers in a day or two.

Thanks again, guys!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 8:30:07
 
Kevin Cloud

 

Posts: 7
Joined: Jul. 18 2012
From: Berkeley, California

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Kevin Cloud

PS here's my friend Tobias demoing a 'Torino', my most treble-y model. He's a little scary ;-)

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 8:49:13
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to srshea

quote:

Yeah, of course. I do some of my best thinking on the cajon.


excellent , its the best place to think.......... .....

quote:

I can just see someone placing a high school tuba player on stage with a flamenco guitarist in an effort to be "experimental."

and thats the kind of things you think of when there........

Excuse me now , I just have to go to the cajón

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 10:33:48
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Kevin Cloud

You have to understand that most flamenco performances happen after dinner. The mediterranean diet can have a certain "interference" with all those microphones on stage so its always a good practice to have instruments that resemble farts
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 12:33:06
 
wfrancis86

 

Posts: 36
Joined: Jun. 30 2012
 

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Kevin Cloud

Yeah, not the biggest fan either of cajon in flamenco... or at least what I've heard. Too muddy and soft when compared to palmas. And Estebana is right, bass = fart in flamenco (Paco de Lucia's group at least). I'm not trying to diminish the artistry of people who play bass or cajon in flamenco, just not my cup of tea.

What do you guys think of the tabla in flamenco? I prefer it too cajon because it is a much crisper and dynamic instrument IMO. Besides the idea of reconnecting gypsies with their Indian roots (I kind of barf at this kind of romantic geneology honestly), I just think the tabla sounds "right", and the cajon "wrong" when it comes to flamenco. With this all said, I am still very much more attracted to traditional flamenco versus any kind of fusion.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 18:43:59
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Thoughts on the cajón (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

The mediterranean diet can have a certain "interference" with all those microphones


Ay por dios ....Rui you been playing that Buleria por Feijoada again ......

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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 5 2012 20:19:22
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