Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Kevin, have you passed your examination now? If so, have you posted your thesis online yet as it sounds like interesting reading.
No. Exams in Sept. I hope to publish it as a book but the content may slightly change for various reasons.
quote:
I don't know you and I don't think that really matters... I would like to ask you one thing: how is this helping your career as a teacher and/or performer?
Actually, it's not. I lived in New Mexico which is one of the Meccas of flamenco in the US. I got most of my experience there. I then decided to pursue a doctorate with the hopes that I might eventually start a flamenco guitar program. Since there is not much flamenco in Colorado, not enough to get you to that next level, I decided I would only be here shortly. 3 years of graduate schools has turned into 5 with a year off. Now that I have finished my coursework and will soon take my exams I am moving back to NM or to the West Coast where I can hopefully pursue more active roles in flamenco. The website is not for me either as a teacher or performer. It's to help people like myself who discover flamenco late in life. There are no shortcuts but I can help you to avoid the long route unnecessarily. Either way, flamenco will be lifelong.
RE: FlamencoGuitarTheory.com (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
No, but rather I would hope you to take BOTH ideas and discover for yourself the "truth" and how they may actually be pointing at the SAME direction...rather than forcing and twisting to conform to what YOU THINK the spaniards only are trying to say feeding your own misconception. Sometimes the outsider actually has a decent view of certain things and help you get at what you are after EASIER than those embedded inside the thing. Not always the case, but for example Norman for one deserves a special respect having a unique vantage point ... I would take his assesment regarding a specific cante over just about any singer I have played for has to say about it. Hope you get the point.
That point is well-taken. Don't know why you would think that about me. I am pretty open to other ways of viewing things but I will STAUNCHLY defend my view as one possible view, NOT the view, just a part of the puzzle.
No offense to Norman. I go to his site all the time but I was doing the same work in 2001 long before I joined the foro. The difference; Norman has access to the book by the Soler Diaz guys which is now out of print and hard to get. I am not saying that his contribution is not worthy. It is VERY valuable. However, anyone could (hypothetically) buy that book and everyone should (if it comes back in print), and there might be some interesting discussions based on each perspective of that.
You seem to like to look at the big picture when it is convenient FOR YOU ("look at both sides of the coin, miss the forest for the trees, look at both ideas to arrive at truth") but miss it at other times. That's OK. You are human, just don't make the criticism of me when you do it as well. An example is the recent Cm/Eb chord in Ramzi's progression. I looked at it from several angles and even tried to give a little socio-historical background as to how that chord might have developed.
You named the chord. I named the chord and said "Here is how it is used in classical, here's how it could be used in jazz and pop. In flamenco you could also use it this way." Then I said, here are historical reasons; "Early jazz musicians from leaders of orchestras (Paul Whiteman, but choose almost any early bandleader) were schooled in classical music. The dominant-tonic architecture of much of jazz is appropriated from the classical tradition." Then I said, "Chords in classical music function in a certain way but it is possible that a chord like that would be spelled differently in jazz. It would not be the first time it happened. There is a term for it in classical, enharmonism."
Just trying to express myself in a few words, no bitterness or animosity intended. Maybe the use of quotation marks was unnecessary; sorry if that hurt your feelings. I'll stand by the words alarming and disturbing, though, because, as they imply, I expected more of you.
quote:
I didn't just copy a book someone else wrote (no offense)
No, you misinterpret them. I'd point out some memorable examples that have appeared on the forum, but that's not possible now because you've deleted all your posts. I assume that "no offense" is an attempt at taking some kind of cheap shot at my soleá and siguiriya pages. Although I always have and always will give the Solers the credit, I corrected a lot of their mistakes (with their approval) and added a lot of my own conclusions. I tried to reword the Spanish texts but it got to be too much work toward the end.
Look, I think you're probably a nice guy, a very good aficionado and a knowledgeable and skilled musician. I hope we can have some beers, share a laugh and enjoy live flamenco some day (that's an open invitation, if you're ever in my neck of the woods).
My problem is that there are too many people today saying and publishing nonsense about the roots and essence of flamenco. The "sacred" element of afición used to mean placing greater emphasis on styles that were falling into oblivion. Now that nearly everything's been recorded, that's not so important, IMO. New chords and tunings, modification of melodic lines, etc. aren't going to be the demise of flamenco (sometimes they're like nutrients). What's important today is to distinguish the truth from the nonsense and to be extremely careful not to propagate the misinformation. I hope you're able to do so in your new endeavor.
An outraged, red faced Classical music lover wrote to them saying that he thought it was utterly disgusting that they were not serious and didn't play the music properly. They replied that they were indeed very serious and endevoured to play the music as properly as possible, but just that they weren't very good.
RE: FlamencoGuitarTheory.com (in reply to NormanKliman)
quote:
I assume that "no offense" is an attempt at taking some kind of cheap shot at my soleá and siguiriya pages.
No. My point is that either way it is a lot of work. I use your pages all the time. I do not think you deserve SPECIAL respect but rather gratitude. Anybody can do that work and deserves some respect for doing so. However, anyone that wants to learn will at some point have to do the works as well. Therefore, I am grateful.
As for the invitation, I would love to. I am the first to say that I am missing something by not having gone to Spain. Beers and lot of them sound great.
quote:
My problem is that there are too many people today saying and publishing nonsense about the roots and essence of flamenco...What's important today is to distinguish the truth from the nonsense and to be extremely careful not to propagate the misinformation. I hope you're able to do so in your new endeavor.
Distinguishing truth from nonsense is a process not an end, as I am sure you know. In that regard, all I can do is all that anyone else does: defend current views with supporting evidence and adjust them when new facts/evidence emerges (or I become acquainted with them).
As for roots and essence of flamenco, who is publishing things you do not agree with? Hurtado Torres suggest that the seguiriya is an offshoot of jacaras. They don't go into detail. Anyway, people make these kind of statements and sometimes they are worthy even if not conclusive because someone else picks up on them and investigates further. Sometimes seemingly stupid or insignificant information turns out to be just what is needed. At any rate, it does not bother Pepe Habichuela one way or the other, he makes art.
@RON: That is AWESOME. Art is so strange. Most of my friends that are "classical" musicians cannot stand Ines Bacan and Macanita because of their intonation. I always try to explain that the art of singing is not about intonation, or at least not always about intonation. They are two singers I enjoy greatly.
You named the chord. I named the chord and said "Here is how it is used in classical, here's how it could be used in jazz and pop. In flamenco you could also use it this way." Then I said, here are historical reasons;
Ah no...I named the chord, you RENAMED the chord to fit your view SO THAT you could spout off historical context. Sorry that is NOT being open minded.
quote:
I use your pages all the time. I do not think you deserve SPECIAL respect but rather gratitude. Anybody can do that work and deserves some respect for doing so. However, anyone that wants to learn will at some point have to do the works as well.
ive noticed ...the problems with argument threads is not the arguing is that even after it ends..the foro always goes dead for a day or 2...noone says anything...everyone is still waiting silently on the argument thread
hey i had a farruca cante accompaniment discussion come and gonne i would have just loved to get people involved in but ...cheers to Ricardo for getting involved...can always count on him
RE: FlamencoGuitarTheory.com (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Ah no...I named the chord, you RENAMED the chord to fit your view SO THAT you could spout off historical context. Sorry that is NOT being open minded.
Ricardo, I am pretty sure I know what I did and why I did it. Why you being so hostile? Chill out. Listen, I contacted one of the professors at the university who is a jazz pianist and historian to ask his take. He hasn't responded yet but if I weren't open, would I have wasted my time contacting him? Did you attempt the same?
quote:
Gee Kevin, thanks for giving my thread a quick, painless death. That was awesome!
Your thread is one page full of positive replies while mine is two pages spent defending my recent actions and ancient posts. I hardly think my page has anything to do with the disinterest in yours. Perhaps it says more about the community or financial situation right now. Thanks for your negative post though, I won't reciprocate.
MY LAST POST HERE ON THIS THREAD. FOR ANYONE INTERESTED, I AM GOING LIVE SOON. I WILL KEEP YOU UPDATED.
Your thread is one page full of positive replies while mine is two pages spent defending my recent actions and ancient posts. I hardly think my page has anything to do with the disinterest in yours. Perhaps it says more about the community or financial situation right now. Thanks for your negative post though, I won't reciprocate.
Kevin, wow man, i was just goofing around! Did'nt you see the in my post?
No negativity intended. You dont control who posts where.
I have complete respect for what you do, and wish you the best with your site. TK
Kevin, wow man, i was just goofing around! Did'nt you see the in my post?
No negativity intended. You dont control who posts where.
I have complete respect for what you do, and wish you the best with your site. TK
Sorry, I just don't understand the emoticons.
Believe me, I know no one can control what gets posted.
At any rate, I think that we are trying to fill very different niches and I wish you the best as well although I do not believe you need it. People will be happy to study with you man.
Thanks Kev, i can say the same thing about you. You clearly have an awesome breadth of knowledge, and will have no problem attracting students. Regards! TK
Well I'm new and have no prior history with anyone on the site and I can say that I'm looking forward to seeing Kevin's site as it sounds like the kind of thing that I would find useful. Everyone here seems to be very skilled and well-versed in terms of flamenco playing, which is great, but leaves newbies like me a little lost.
RE: FlamencoGuitarTheory.com (in reply to fingerstyle)
quote:
ORIGINAL: fingerstyle
Well I'm new and have no prior history with anyone on the site and I can say that I'm looking forward to seeing Kevin's site as it sounds like the kind of thing that I would find useful. Everyone here seems to be very skilled and well-versed in terms of flamenco playing, which is great, but leaves newbies like me a little lost.
Its normal. Flamenco guitar has 3 main fields: solo guitar, accompany singing and dancing. Once you get out of the "solo guitar" box (which is the thing that made 99% of the guitarrists come to flamenco) and learn about the other too, it starts to make sense. (although there is nothing wrong with just sticking with the solo music ;))
the "solo guitar" box (which is the thing that made 99% of the guitarrists come to flamenco)
Thats not how it works here in Andalucia. Its not devided like that. Most start to play because they want to play with singers AND want to play falsetas.
Its a very typical problem on this forum. Focus is 100% on what is called flamenco guiry. Noone seems to care how things work here, where it all comes from. Its Andalucian culture and not something else nevermind the amount of solo guitar players that exists outside Andalucía.
This whole thread is and extremely good example. Most Andalucians if not all would just shake their head and walk away, thinking that foreigners dont understand sh*t and that they never will. At the same time they will be worried about the impact from foreign cultures and be afraid that it´ll ruin their own culture.
Thats not how it works here in Andalucia. Its not devided like that. Most start to play because they want to play with singers AND want to play falsetas.
You are preaching to the choir. Although I started out interested only in learning some solo material from a maestro, I quickly became interested in accompaniment. If you have extra singers, send them my way.
quote:
Its a very typical problem on this forum. Focus is 100% on what is called flamenco guiry. Noone seems to care how things work here, where it all comes from. Its Andalucian culture and not something else nevermind the amount of solo guitar players that exists outside Andalucía.
Been saying that for years but many people are not interested in hearing that.
quote:
This whole thread is and extremely good example. Most Andalucians if not all would just shake their head and walk away, thinking that foreigners dont understand sh*t and that they never will. At the same time they will be worried about the impact from foreign cultures and be afraid that it´ll ruin their own culture.
That is sad because there are as many Spaniards "ruining" their own culture as their are foreigners trying to preserve it. Are there going to be negative impacts? I think so unfortunately. However, there is definitely some positivity going on as well. What would Spain and flamenco be without the many Japanese and American consumers traveling and buying merchandise. Flamenco was all but dead (or, it was not very vibrant) until Paco and Camaron resuscitated it.
What are the Spanish doing to help? I can honestly say that I take teaching very seriously and a VERY BIG part of the public that I am catering to is the public that lives without a community. I have thought long and hard about how to teach material so that when JOE SHMO in Fargo, ND gets an opportunity to learn something from artists passing through, he can make the most out of that learning experience. This thread is not the be-all-end-all of flamenco. Nor is my site. They are VERY SMALL stepping stones to help people interested IN CANTE AND BAILE ACCOMPANIMENT so they can take advantage of real opportunites when they come along.
the "solo guitar" box (which is the thing that made 99% of the guitarrists come to flamenco)
Thats not how it works here in Andalucia. Its not devided like that. Most start to play because they want to play with singers AND want to play falsetas.
Its a very typical problem on this forum. Focus is 100% on what is called flamenco guiry. Noone seems to care how things work here, where it all comes from. Its Andalucian culture and not something else nevermind the amount of solo guitar players that exists outside Andalucía.
This whole thread is and extremely good example. Most Andalucians if not all would just shake their head and walk away, thinking that foreigners dont understand sh*t and that they never will. At the same time they will be worried about the impact from foreign cultures and be afraid that it´ll ruin their own culture.
So what do you propose to change that? As Kevin said, if you've got a few extra shipments of singers to export into foreign countries...we're all waiting...
That is sad because there are as many Spaniards "ruining" their own culture as their are foreigners trying to preserve it. Are there going to be negative impacts? I think so unfortunately.
I agree and I also see many negative things going on. I´ve worked with 3 different courses for singers and the trend is very clear. The young singers, learning, are NOT intersted in cante jondo. If the teachers give them tangos, alegrias and bulerias to work with, then they prepare. But if its a Soleá or Granaina... noone prepares anything. They dont like it. Maybe you´ll be lucky to find 1 out of 20 - 100 interested in what I call the base of flamenco.
Munin... The best you can do is to listen and I´m sure can import many spanish flamenco singers if you can find them a job. Because A LOT of them are unemployed.
You all might disagree but to me the flamingo/fakemenco is a big part of what makes flamenco alive by bringing people into the real flamenco.
It happens with all the music genres, people get to listen to something that is the "trend of the moment in that genre" and then they research older bands/artists.
Fakemenco and all that crappy chill out flamingo opens people's hears to the spanish guitar sound and the characteristic flamenco scales and playing, that makes it easier for them to get into real flamenco when they finally find it.
I think it is always a double edged sword when we're discussing the pros and cons of a genre's evolution.
Maybe you´ll be lucky to find 1 out of 20 - 100 interested in what I call the base of flamenco.
I guess the jondo palos are not everyones cup of tea. Still, it doesn't stop those who ARE interested in jondo flamenco from enjoying it.
I think singers, dancers and guitarists have an extremely vast selection of available influences and information these days. People tend to develop strengths in certain areas and then go with that. Flamenco is far too deep for any one style or person. No matter what anyone learns, they will always be lacking in some area.
Olso there has been many (IMO not so great) versions of jondo palos sung, so they need to take some of the blame
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson Thats not how it works here in Andalucia.
Id expect it not to work like that in Andalucia. Since im not there and dont have the time to learn the language im pretty sure i will never be an cultural insider. Although im pretty sure im as respectful to the art as i can be (at my level of understanding it) and i could accompany more or less ok too if i were among insiders. If that is offensive well sorry but i cant do anything about it so i indeed dont care.
I guess the jondo palos are not everyones cup of tea.
But it is the starting point of flamenco. The base of it all. Thats where the spirit is, thats where the attitude and the duende is. The flamenco light palos come from that that base but they are just the flowers, not the roots. You´ll never be playing, singing or dancing flamenco if you dont like Cante jondo. You´ll be playing flamenco light and every day its turning more and more into just plain Andalucian pop music.
You´ll be playing flamenco light and every day its turning more and more into just plain Andalucian pop music.
I think i know what you mean Anders. It's hard to put the finger on exactly where and why things are changing. I'd say it has more to do with evolution, energy and where we are, not only with flamenco, but as a species. It's as though we are looking for simplicity and finding complexity.
Maybe the old stuff was good enough? But in the search for something better again, people have to try lots of different things. Unfortunately some will not be as good.
Plus look at all the pressure we put on each other here on the foro. If someone uploads a traditional solea played with feeling, they can expect to be told that the falsetas are a bit square and that they need to work on their picado ect...
But it is the starting point of flamenco. The base of it all. Thats where the spirit is, thats where the attitude and the duende is. The flamenco light palos come from that that base but they are just the flowers, not the roots. You´ll never be playing, singing or dancing flamenco if you dont like Cante jondo. You´ll be playing flamenco light and every day its turning more and more into just plain Andalucian pop music.
Deniz, I didn´t see anything offensive in your post, but I think you were making a conclusion based on lack of information. Nothing else.
I know, no problem Anders. Its just that i wasnt talking about only Andalucia but worldwide. Also you kind of mix up two different things: focus on solo guitar of foreigners and the disappearing of jondo flamenco (which is your observation). A solo guitar performance can be just as flamenco as it gets IMO. Its just a different WAY of expressing, but the expression itself is flamenco. Lastly i want to say i respect cante jondo of course for having been the root and inspiration for alot of flamenco. But as i dont understand the lyrics they only move me 1% of how other singing styles move me.
But as i dont understand the lyrics they only move me 1% of how other singing styles move me.
Now here you have a good point. And in general, the worst lyrics you find in Fandangos de Huelva.
I dont think Cante Jondo is disappearing. There´ll always be some nerds around and besides, on competition level, thats what counts the most. But generally speaking amongst the passive listener and the average "I want to learn to sing a bit of flamenco", Cante Jondo is not doing very well...
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread