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BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Paraiso: paradise wood) vs Spanish Cypress
Hello everyone, in the near future i'm going to buy my first flamenco guitar. It appears my only chance of obtaining one, is through ordering a custom one.....Why? I am left handed. Yes i know you can convert a right handed one but I don't want to risk any mess ups. So anyways the cheapest route(Cheap as in 2,200-2,500 ....cheapest option i could find, for what i want =( ) for a blanca that i have found would be a Bellucci guitar, a builder mostly known for classical guitars. These are beautiful guitars, but i haven't heard any flamenco sound clips on his flamenco models, he simply plays classical on them. Also if i was able to find a left handed one, i probably would have just bought a Cordoba 45FP Left handed.
So anyways, back to the main point of this post: He says on his website that he believes Primavera is a much better tonewood than spanish cypress. "It si far better than Cypress when comes to the Flamenco sound but the great side to this wood is that it performs fantastically well in Classical music as well making it my top choice for Flamenco/Classical Construction."
So does anyone have experience with Paraiso(primavera) as a tone-wood? and do you think it's better than Spanish cypress. That being said i guess this post is going to be mostly opinion based, i would formulate my own opinion but i can hardly find sound clips of a primavera back and side flamenco. Looks-wise, i do think primavera wins ; But it's the sound that counts.
One last question: What type of spruce is the traditional selection, and which do you think sounds the best? Bellucci Spruce options:(reflects the added price to order) Canadian Spruce(0) Italian spruce(180) Alpine Spruce(245)
I do want a pretty traditional flamenco guitar, but i don't think i'd sacrifice performance for tradition...with one exception...i really like the pegs...hopefully i can get those geared pegs. So obviously the traditional choice would be spanish cypress or sycamore right? has primavera ever been used for them in the past?
RE: BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Par... (in reply to ibanezx123)
quote:
Cheap as in 2,200-2,500
What are talking here? Euros, Pound Sterling, Pesetas or yankee dolares?
I have never tried Paraiso so no comments, but its a good idea to trust your builder. In the end its his work that is important and if he makes better guitars with Paraiso, then I would buy that. That said, I personally like Med. Cypress A LOT and it works very well for me.
With respect of the soundboard wood, its all good. It depends more on the quality of each piece than where it was cut. And again, trust your builder. I personally like Alpine spruce, but thats just me.
Many guitars can be converted rigt - left. It depends on the bracing and the bridge compensation. And sometimes I even think the bracing doesnt matter. I tried a test guitar by Manuel Bellido with a assymetrical bracing system.. It was built like a left hand and set up as a right hand and I personally think its one of the best guitars that he had made and that I´ve tried......
Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England
RE: BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Par... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
I tried a test guitar by Manuel Bellido with a assymetrical bracing system.. It was built like a left hand and set up as a right hand and I personally think its one of the best guitars that he had made and that I´ve tried......
That's interesting. When was this? I know someone who has just sold a Bellido just like that. It was made in 2000 and he got it at a good price (because it was experimental I think) As you say asymetric bracing, 9 slim braces, parallel, but angled across the grain and with a transverse bar the wrong way round for a right hander. Fantastic guitar!
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Par... (in reply to ibanezx123)
RUN RUN RUN FAST AWAY FROM BELLUCCI. I originally wrote a post but as I was leaving I noticed the name Bellucci. There have been a plethora of posts, especially at acguitar, about this guy and 99% negative. The guitars are junk is the common opinion. Most people report they are poorly built, overly urethaned (think of using 2 to 3 condoms) and a lot what the seller says is total B.S.
I would bet Bellucci got a bunch of primavera and is now trying to convince unsuspecting clients to get their flamenco guitars made with the stuff. Had this guy a credible reputation then maybe but the general opinion is extremely negative. RUN RUN FAST AWAY.
By the way, Bellucci, or whoever is the boss, is following in the footsteps of a certain "Professor". On his web page you can see videos where he gets some famous female classical guitarist to play his guitars, video tapes them, and then exploits the video to suggest they are fans of his work.
Here is what I originally posted.
from the book, real wood bible: the density of primavera (Cybistax donnell-smithii) is about the same as mediterrian and montery (sp on both?) cypress so that is a plus. the book mentions primavera tends to splits --a negative. as to which is better that is a judgement that needs to be made by you. as for aroma--cypress hands down. if for any other reason cypress will give you that intoxicating aroma.
the real question to ask: if primavera is so great a tone wood are there any guitars out there made with the stuff. if so, what do the reviews say? if not, why? ibanezx123--do you want the be the first kid on any block to have a flamenco blanca made with the stuff?
RE: BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Par... (in reply to keith)
@ Keith, haha thanks for the info...maybe bellucci's are just meant to look nice and not sound great ><...well that puts me in a hard situation then haha. I do know of a Jose Ramirez FL2, in left hand...but it's $3,000. a little over my budget...i'm trying to stay as close to 2,000 or less. But at this point, that might be my only option. I mean, i know i could put tap plates on my classical, hahaha my classical guitar teacher would probably refuse to teach me at that point hahaha. But also the sustain would make it horrible for flamenco
Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia
RE: BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Par... (in reply to ibanezx123)
As I said , I'll leave it to others who have personal experience to comment on the sound and playability, but I really hate the design and aesthetics of what I have seen on his site. His guitars are an assault to my eyes with their over-ornamantation and use of gaudy combinations. And the one on his home page with a flatsawn sinker redwood top?
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Par... (in reply to ibanezx123)
ibanezx123--below is a link to acguitar--type in bellucci or mangore to read the many threads . you can be the judge for yourself. as to a left handed guitar. from what i know a flamenco guitar should be able to go left or right with minor changes (the nut being an issue). i think the luthiers can give you better direction here.
RE: BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Par... (in reply to Jeff Highland)
@ jeff, and keith, Yeah i've looked at many forum about bellucci, and it doesn't look good, there have been many cases where the guitar requested has some missing bits or...they order a cut-away and get one without things like that...they also say the quality is maybe of a student guitar or less but the price is still steep.
So now i guess the same old question comes up, how to obtain a left handed one haha...i might have to get that ramirez....it's not exactly what i want though, i wish it had geared pegs, and not machine-heads...especially hate the white tuning buttons. But at least i already know i like the sound of it...There is a video of Grisha playing an FL2...sounds really bright...maybe almost to aggressive of a sound haha but still nice
I also have really considered making it myself, although i have no experience in making guitars...but eventually i do want to make it a hobby, as for tools and resources, i just have "classical guitar making-a modern approach to traditional design" by John S. Bogdanovich...which seems to be really great, except i want a flamenco not classical haha.... so might need a little....(lot) of practice and some flamenco guitar plans....some wood obviously and a lot more tools...might end up being a lot more expensive but i'd have tools left over. Also my brother has a Large Mill and lathe.....don't think the lathe would be useful but might be able to use the mill sort-of like a drill press? idk(i don't know). also have a tiny router table and hand router. so i'd have to look into this option more to get a better idea, think i'd need a side bending deal and "go-bar deck" i think it's called...,for the side bending i think the traditional heated iron/shoe thing would take a load more skill to use...so i'd take the easy way out and use the bending machine deal...or make my own. I'd need all the hand tools(scraper, gouges, ect.) , sand paper, those big sanding disks.
haha sorry i'm going a bit off topic, but at least i know you guys will tell me if that is an even worse idea hahah
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
RE: BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Par... (in reply to ibanezx123)
Man oh man... I would check out another builder... At one time in my life I thought of having this guy build me a double top classical, that is until I played one of his guitars. If all of his guitars are like the one I played, I would rather not even play the guitar anymore than to have to face life with that instrument...
If you are looking at spending $2500, I know there are a few of the luthiers on here who can and will build you a guitar. Man you would be so much better off going that way... $2500 is far to much money to spend on this guy, trust me... By the way, the Cordoba wouldn't be the best option for flamenco either. The bridge is to high, the body to large and deep and those guitars are over all just to heavy. If for some reason you don't want to go with one of the guys on here who make guitars in your price range, check out the Kenny Hill New World. As I recall they make some left handed guitars. This guy is just bad news...
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Par... (in reply to Shawn Brock)
shawn--great post and funny to boot. reading the posts at acguitar and g.s.i. it appears not only are the guitars dogs but the customer service is lacking--big time. it was apparent at acguitar that bellucci/mangore, what-have-you, had a couple of ringers who would go post as if they actually owned the guitars.
i refer to a person who buys a guitar from him as being "man gored".
jeff--yeah some of those guitars are an assault to the eyes especially that flamenco with the gaudy inlays. the only other butt ugly flamenco guitar i have seen was a few years ago where the builder painted colored dots on the headstock.
RE: BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Par... (in reply to ibanezx123)
I like how you don't have to choose a purfling marquetry scheme because they give you all of them . Does he still offer $15 Chinese tuners as a $250 upgrade?
RE: BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Par... (in reply to ibanezx123)
Go ahead ignore all the horror stories buy one of his heavenly masterpieces, just don't be surprised if your Cypress turns out to be recycled Chinese newspapers or your Brazilian Rosewood is banana leaves wrapped in spray painted monkey shiit.
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Par... (in reply to ibanezx123)
sean, i have a set of those chinese tuners--antique brass with "ebony" buttons--which are not bad tuners especially since they cost me only $30 which included the shipping cost. you can find those and many others like them at the bay.
bellucci charges nothing for an ebony fretboard but $40 more (or was it $30?) for a rosewood fretboard. gee, that just destroys the myth that inexpensive guitars have rosewood fretboards because it is less expensive to build them that way.
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
RE: BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Par... (in reply to ibanezx123)
LOL, to many funny comments to address here! "Man gored", that's just to much. LOL "or your Brazilian Rosewood is banana leaves wrapped in spray painted monkey shiit." Can't keep up or top either....
@ Rumbaking, Hmm... Don't know if I could let go of either of my Castillos, but I am itching for a good spruce blanca. To the chagrin of many (including myself), I'm thinking of saving back for an old Conde... Maestro Faulk should shoot me now for confessing such a thought. I just don't know what's wrong with me, or why I'm thinking so hard about getting an old Conde. Can someone help me? After all I have always had something against Conde, but lately I'm starting to sway.
RE: BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Par... (in reply to Sean)
@ Sean haha nah you guys have convinced me to run far away from that guy, plus i have read some of the forum posts you guys mentioned. Also yeah i never liked the idea of getting a Cordoba, most of them are made in china, but even though the model i was looking at is "made in spain" it's still hard to know for sure that the build quality would be up to parr, but also not to mention, it's a sycamore back and sides rather than spanish cypress(which isn't that bad just not exactly what i want) AND it's laminated(ohh F balls).....for a 1,000 dollar guitar i'd expect all solid...just to clarify talking about the Cordoba 45 FP. So it appears my only options are to: A.) Find a builder with reasonable prices B.) up my budget and find a builder with normal prices(high) C.) Ramirez FL 2(still damn expensive, it's $3,000 btw, a little steep for me) but damn Grisha makes it sound good. But anyways there is a left handed one for sale, only think i don't like...it has tuning machines and especially don't like the white buttons, they look like cheap plastic...on a 3,000 dollar guitar...but i do like the sound...what do you guys think... ramirez worth the extra money ? or better off with a custom builder of sorts.
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Par... (in reply to ibanezx123)
ibanezx123--here is a resource for you in your quest for a left handed guitar. pavan guitars have a good reputation--he is known for his classical but does sell a negra and i would bet may be help to you if you are looking for a blanca.
alhambra makes a left hand guitar as well. here is a link to 7fc. i once owned a 7fc and it was a good guitar. here is a link to a description. below is a link to xguitars who sell alhambras in the states.
RE: BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Par... (in reply to ibanezx123)
ibanezx123, Contact Andy Culpepper (dteresa) here at the Foro for an instrument. Grisha is a fantastic artist and could make a truly crappy guitar sound good. I have played a FL2 in the past and it doesn't compare to my Culpepper Blanca. Don't pay 3k usd for the Ramirez FL2 which is a student model when I'm sure you could have a top quality lefty flamenco built for you by Andy. I have a Blanca from him and its outstanding for the price. I'm sure he could accomodate your needs without too many issues. Sig--
RE: BLANCA-Tone-woods: Primavera(Par... (in reply to ibanezx123)
Hey Ibanezx123. I'm also left-handed. All my guitars are either converted right handers or custom ordered/built left handed. There is no difference whether you convert or have one made. All the makers I carry offer to build a left-handed model at no extra cost. In case your interested.
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