Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Another question for the experienced in dance accompanyment.
We have a choreography which contains 5 singing tacts in the intro, never bothered me because I thought in 6/8 it's not a problem if it's not an even number of tacts, and listening to the singing without dance it seems there's a huge number of possibilities.
Not to mention I found this, it's exactly how we do it:
So then we got a singer who complained about singing 5 and insisted it should be 6, but the dancer was the head of the group and made her do 5. I would either do what the head of the group says or just follow the voice of the singer.
Is there some golden rule I'm not aware of, is it a regional thing or has it become more strict in the recent decades?
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
RE: Caña/Polo for dance - number of... (in reply to John O.)
Dancers have made a horlicks of caña/polo because they don´t know cante. They always want to do a remate after each phrase which works out as 7 beats, giving a compá of 14.
Listen to someone who knows, eg Paco, but no point in arguing: this case is lost. Dancers are the catetos de flamenco
RE: Caña/Polo for dance - number of... (in reply to Morante)
That wasn't my question, but something else that maybe has an interesting background to it. I thought that was the singer's preference. Fosforito always sang metrically in 6/8, but El Cabrero allows a break in there, as does José Menése.
I meant the amount of 6/8 tacts to be sung. Here there are 5, usually there are 6.
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Caña/Polo for dance - number of... (in reply to John O.)
quote:
Is there some golden rule I'm not aware of, is it a regional thing or has it become more strict in the recent decades?
Not clear what a "tact" is or where you got that terminology. I assume you mean measures or phrases? So the ay ay ay part is phrased in 6's or 7's depending on the guitar, and each one of those is one "tact"????
If so, yeah there is a more valiente one where the singer goes up on the scale an extra time. There is no golden rule other then who ever is the most advanced or most experienced performer will dictate or deal with it. By that I mean if it is the cajon player, he or she will stop and tell everyone it should be done "this way" whatever it is. If it is the guitarist that is most advanced, he or she will probably just "deal" with which ever way the singer or dancer NEEDS to do it because they are too low level to adapt themselves.
In the end I agree with Morante's sentiments that through the years the dancers have boxed in and structured and standardized the cante in a way that chokes it's original intended freedoms of expression that the guitarist has no problems dealing with traditionally or even with modern methods of accompaniment. I don't want to admit it is simply because they don't understand or care about cante, but rather that they are more concerned with the "feeling" of square or symmetrical phrasing at more specific speeds that suits the body movements better.
RE: Caña/Polo for dance - number of... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Not clear what a "tact" is or where you got that terminology. I assume you mean measures or phrases? So the ay ay ay part is phrased in 6's or 7's depending on the guitar, and each one of those is one "tact"????
John's speaking Deutschlisch (Engleutsch?)... 'Takt' is the German word for bar/measure.
RE: Caña/Polo for dance - number of... (in reply to Estevan)
quote:
Sunday, April 8, 2012 Flamenco Quote of the Day
"There certainly are very difficult dancers. I am talking about those bailaores who try to twist the cante in the direction they want. They expect you to put cortes where there aren't any, or even add whole measures. As a result, the cante itself degenerates. Many dancers influence the cante this way, the reason being that often "bailaores" are really "bailarines" and don't know the cante. They tell you "sing a taranto" and if you sing them a taranto or a murciano, they won't notice the diffference. They are in reality mathematicians: they only care about the measures. While you are singing, they are just counting."
Antonio Carrasco/Cantaor
His conclusion tells it all (?).
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Caña/Polo for dance - number of... (in reply to mezzo)
quote:
His conclusion tells it all (?).
Ha ha!! Yep that sums it up! Although, there are some good dancers that sing too...and sing better then the singers they hire sometimes. But in general that's how I feel about it too.
RE: Caña/Polo for dance - number of... (in reply to Ricardo)
Interesting, I didn't see the situation that way! This particular dancer is actually big on NOT doing it the way Antonio Carrasco described, it's important to her to pay attention to the singing - she does sing too. It threw her off that this singer said 5 measures was "wrong".
So in the end, the flamenco thing to do have been to let this singer sing six measures the way she wanted and add a measure to her choreography, because she's well able to. She's gonna love this
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
RE: Caña/Polo for dance - number of... (in reply to John O.)
I've found Cañas performances on Youtube, listented to the cante of the most popular singers, if 4, 5, 6, 8 measures have been done before, which they have, it cannot be wrong. If a measure has been sung 6 or 7 beats, which it has, then both variations are right. As far as flamenco goes I'm not interested in wrong or right. Besides whether I like it or not, I only care about finding out why, as you stated, there are the many conventions. The above is my own opinion, and yes I do have one - but I didn't create this post to share my opinions, knowledge or experience. I created it to get some perspective from others as there are people here with much more experience than I have.
An aspect I didn't think of before concerning this was the singer's freedom to do what she wanted, just as I like to play my own falsetas. I like that idea, so I got what I came here for, another idea to add to my library of ideas.
Your second post made me write the above, your "Android" post just made me think you were a jerk. I don't care however if you add some useful information to it, that's all I'm here for...
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
RE: Caña/Polo for dance - number of... (in reply to Guest)
DANGIT, thought the comment didn't make a lot of sense. Sorry for flying off the handle there
My theory was always that in 6/8 it's okay as a compás is 6 beats, not 12, just like a 4/4 could allow 4 instead of 8. Dancers seem to have accepted the uneven measures in Columbianas. There's the "Canta por Fandango" salida letra that goes 5 measures which I've seen danced and I've seen bulerias remates from dancers with an uneven number of measures, too.
Fandangos, Bulerias, Guajiras, Peteneras, the escobillas of the Soleá song forms, the Caña escobilla starts with an extra 6 in the run to C. However any cante with an upbeat to the 3 wouldn't allow it. Bulerias doesn't fit to this theory of mine since it has letras with upbeat to the 3, but it does always have a 2-beat feel, the 3 to me feels more like a contra. Listening to Mairena sing Soleá por Bulerias though, for example, he's all over the place in the letras but the guitarist holds the beat no matter what and he always comes out on a 10.
But I do agree, in the phrasal sense it doesn't always make sense to have an uneven amount of compás, and it is easier to spot the llamada of a dancer coming after 4 or 6 compás and gives the choreography a much better structure. If the singer is good though then you hear the resolution coming and it's no problem - but the dancer doesn't, as stated above.
Yeah I'm sure the 7 beat thing definitely came from the singers, it seems like something a dancer would try to forbid if it weren't done so often...
Thanks for the imput, always appreciate it
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Caña/Polo for dance - number of... (in reply to John O.)
You guys touched on some important compas things I would like to share some thoughts on. Some things we discussed much in the past already.
About Caña....the lament I never thought off as "in compas" anyway. The compas stops there and the singer sings "libre". Not much different the fandango naturales is loosely based on the 3 beat huelva form, but so stretched we just think totally free and it is easier. So what happens is the way the guitar answers the lament that makes it seem like in 7. EFGF then E arp remate ala solea makes it seem like in 7. Thing is it is all on the GUITAR at that point. I learned from some older players along the way the other way to handle that and it feels more like 6 is to NOT play the solea arp remate, but just play this fast triplet on the D string with pull offs: FED then just the E on second fret plus open first string which lands on count 6 or 12. The singer might pause anyway, and often does after the supposed "7" beat version too. Again it is just libre so I dont' worry much about it as the dancer is not moving in compas at this point either....or shouldn't be.
Ok, next the Caña escobilla...even though it is phrased in 6s, it still works out cuadrao as I know it: C run to 4 remate then CBD C remate is full compas. CBA G remate, GF#A G remate all is next 12 GAB C remate CDEFGA(8th notes) F Remate FEG F remate 2X GF#A G remate 2X FEG F remate, DEF E remate...
Next mairena...he is actually more cuadrao then most singers of his era. Watch Rito y Geografia and notice that there is not one single solea or buleria por solea that is cuadrao baile style. Cante was never supposed to be like that anyway it tells me....though now a days I am sure plenty look at that way of singing as "out of compas" or as you described "all over the place". Understand that cante was ALWAYS that way until baile forced it into a box. (I have been arguing this point in Solea compas threads for years now).
Norman spells it out crystal clear in his web dedicated to Buleria por Solea half compas examples. In the old days, compas WAS cut often as we do for buleria nowadays...(see examples on Normans site of Ramon Montoya and miguel Borrull) but since MELCHOR DE MARCHENA and NIÑO RICARDO for some strange reason decided to deal with the plethora of different singing styles by maintaining 12s at all costs for all Solea or buleria por solea cantes, it became the trend or even the "rule" to follow. Buleria and other fast rhythms they went ahead and cut compas often. Not clear explanation WHY, as I said it became the trend.
And now the trend of half compas in Bulerias. If you understand letras as ABC lines of verse. The singer will give the cue for changing chords (and therefore cutting compas as we only change chords on the concept of 10 for answering a line of verse) in the A or B lines only. The C line of verse it is the GUITARIST that cuts it if he wants or not. It is the jerez trend for the guitarist to do that often. All that means is the guitar might Go Bb-A on 12-4 and then 6 becomes 12. It doesn't affect the cante at all because it is done there. Well, that is to say the repeat of B and C or the start of the next letra will be defined by what the guitar did, my point is it is not "chaos" or whatever if the guitarist chooses to do that OR fill it up with extra 6 beats of rasgueado on A chord...6 or 7-10. If you don't believe me or think there is something missing with my logic, just check Zambo with Moraito, and notice he deliberately cuts the C verse almost every time. He infact explains this as the jerez way in the ENCUENTRO vid as he demos with general 12 compas, C7-F counts 7-10, then Bb-A with no remate forcing a "half compas". He does this with Terremoto jr in the vid....if you check out their first CD "Cosa Natural" you notice he DOESN'T do that...he usually fills it up cuadrao to 10...proving it is up to the guitarist to do that for fun or not. This practice PDL picked up later (not on early cameron recordings, but later ones for example), probably from Cepero as he picked up lots of tricks from Cepero...and subsequent modern players also do this thing. Dont' get me started on R. Diaz when he came on and anounced that PDL invented this thing and got all bent when I showed the vid of Terremoto and Manuel Morao doing it every letra. LOL
But back to the A or B lines of verse, that is different. That is where the guitarist must wait and listen to where the singer is taking him or her. Some singers only make use of the A verse extensively. Paquera was one who really loved to stretch out on the B line of verse, almost to crazy levels to where Parrilla sometimes just didn't even do C7-F cuz it was impossible to guess when she would resolve, and more important was to resolve that C line of verse.
One more thing is you will notice in B lines of Verse for both Solea and Buleria some players in jerez such as Morao parrilla Cepero etc will switch the chords around F-C7. But rhythm and phrasing concepts are not affected.
RE: Caña/Polo for dance - number of... (in reply to Ricardo)
The Caña escobilla, yeah you're right. Even in the soleares solos Sabicas keeps it even, Paco too. I have one recording from a workshop where it's not even, but that could be a mistake, didn't know better or didn't care. Theoretically I wouldn't think it a problem if the dancer went along with it.
Just heard La Niña de los Peines doing half compás solea por buleria too, and Mairena with another guitarist... Then I tried playing along and realized it's the guitarist's decision to maintain 12's and not the singer's and have been practising with all these old recordings Merchena style the whole time not noticing the half compás, reacting without counting. Cool.
Free sung soleares are a different story though, right? Like this:
There's cuadrao for baile as in one line sung per compás with chord changes on 3 and 10, there's allowing a half compás and such while still maintaining 12's, and then there's reacting to the voice singing freely as in the video above, only feeling the compás. Three different things, right? Just trying to get this stuff into categories...
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Caña/Polo for dance - number of... (in reply to John O.)
quote:
There's cuadrao for baile as in one line sung per compás with chord changes on 3 and 10, there's allowing a half compás and such while still maintaining 12's, and then there's reacting to the voice singing freely as in the video above, only feeling the compás. Three different things, right? Just trying to get this stuff into categories
Sorry was getting to this. I don't consider this "reacting to voice singing freely" and "allowing half compas and such while still maintaining 12"....as any different. The guitar in the vid you posted above is still maintain 12. Perhaps you think of elastic tempo vs strict tempo as a separate category? Thats fine so you now need to revisit Romerito's thread "elastic tempo vs out of compas". So I just keep it in 2 camps, square box for baile, or maintaining 12's, regardless if tempo is strict or not. Carrion was the focus of Romerito's topic where he maintained he played freely or out of compas for the singer. I tried in vain to point out he did a half compas (going against the trend of melchor and niño ricardo) while also having an elastic tempo. I guess you can have a third category where you allow the rare half compas at times, while mostly maintain 12s.
I think the important thing is that a different guitarist for the same singer might have a different way to deal with accompanying and the final result will influence how you hear what the singer is doing. A more strict and driving jerez style player for the singer in your vid above might make you think the singer is very rhythmical and sophisticated with his compas rather then your current impression that he is "singing freely".
RE: Caña/Polo for dance - number of... (in reply to Ricardo)
Okay, get it now - thanks! I definitely have a much easier time with the Melchor de Marchena style, I find elastic tempo much more difficult, which is why I differentiate. So time to practice more of the latter, I guess. I'll check out that thread from Romerito too.
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
RE: Caña/Polo for dance - number of... (in reply to mezzo)
quote:
Sunday, April 8, 2012 Flamenco Quote of the Day
"There certainly are very difficult dancers. I am talking about those bailaores who try to twist the cante in the direction they want. They expect you to put cortes where there aren't any, or even add whole measures. As a result, the cante itself degenerates. Many dancers influence the cante this way, the reason being that often "bailaores" are really "bailarines" and don't know the cante. They tell you "sing a taranto" and if you sing them a taranto or a murciano, they won't notice the diffference. They are in reality mathematicians: they only care about the measures. While you are singing, they are just counting."
Antonio Carrasco/Cantaor
His conclusion tells it all (?).
this is true, but there are other reasons too. in my case, I remember when I danced a short 1 min tangos solo infront of 20 people or so, and there was 2 guitarists and 1 singer behind me, and I just could not hear the cante at all, my whole world was closed on myself, I was only focusing on what im doing as a dancer and being on compas, thats all I was doing, all I could hear behind is the compas and background noise from the singer so I can perfectly understand. however, you have to take into account that Im a beginner dancer so that means I have an excuse experienced dancers who can dance with their eyes closed without thinking about what they are doing, then those should be aware of the cante.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Caña/Polo for dance - number of... (in reply to Guest)
Romerito, I think we talk about 2 different things. Your transcript, he was simply holding out a chord, with accents clearly expressed. You can't say he is adding beats consciously or not unless there is actual notes crammed in there....and even THEN one could argue time slowed for note cramming. (THis is from memory of the transcript thread there were other similar compas weird spots that were simply elastic time as well). What I was referring to above was the LONG thread where you had a vid of them and Carrion grabs his 6th string, and for sure was expressing accents 12,,3,6,9 etc until closing on 4 (half compas) and it seemed as though he was eating beats (or eating time) at times between those accents in 3s. Again it seems "wrong" if you play for baile or used to a more strict time accompantiment style.
About terminology I use, I refer to the compas of the singing relative to guitar accompaniment, and the method used to deal with it by the guitarist. I argue that there need not ever be cuadrao singing, even if the guitar is cuadrao....except when you have baile which is dramatically slow and boxed in. THat means the singing is essentially free phrasing wise, and the guitar, depending on how it accompanies gives the listener the compas reference....vs baile cante where you don't need even palmas or guitar to tell where in the compas the singer is because it is so standardized in terms of timing. Older singing styles this was not the case. This boxed in approach has become the standard as well of saying whether or not a singer sings in compas or not, at least from the view point of people used to hearing it that way. And now because of Carrion's method of accompanying, some can say HE is going off compas following a singer whose melody was never meant to be boxed in anyway!!
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Caña/Polo for dance - number of... (in reply to Guest)
quote:
also redeems dancers in the sense that they should no longer be considered debasers of the tradition. Culture is not static
I am not saying the evolution is all THAT bad....simply it is a shame that the improvising of phrasing across the bar lines has been removed or forced into a new framework, and along with it an other dimension to guitar accompaniment regarding "feilding" tonos. It is a shame that it is disappearing and worse, many people don't think anything is going on or even WORSE some older styles were doing something "wrong".
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread