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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to Guest)
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Angelo Gilardino is a highly respected classical guitar composer, editor, teacher and former concert guitarist. Segovia's widow hired him to go through Segovia's collection of unpublished manuscripts, select those worthy of publication and see them through the press. Gilardino is an expert on Segovia, but certainly no unconditional worshipper.
Gilardino said, "If it would take a thousand pages to write an artistic biography of this man, it would take ten thousand to dispose of all the legends that have grown up around him."
Chapdelaine himself says that he learned a great deal from his encounter with Segovia. The notorious video tells only a fraction of the story. Chapdelaine had resisted Segovia's suggestions in three previous lessons during a week of master classes. When Segovia asked Chapdelaine why he had changed the fingerings, Chapdelaine's only response was, "I thought it was a good idea." That was the end of Segovia's patience.
Another factor which is utterly opaque to those who grew up after the 1960s is the complete change in manners since that time. I am old enough to have grown up under the old "maestro" system.
In those days, it was "my way or the highway" for all highly respected teachers. My brother tells tales of studying under the great surgeon Michael Debakey, his dictatorial ways in the operating room, and the students' covert rebellions.
An interesting example is in a video of the distinguished violinist Isaac Stern giving a master class to a young Israeli string quartet. The players were in their twenties, already highly accomplished musicians. Stern was an entirely genial and warm hearted person. At one part he stops the players, and says, "Remember what we discussed yesterday?" and hums a bit. The players respond instantly with the expression Stern indicated.
Later Stern is interviewed. When asked if the players will always play the way he suggested, Stern replies that of course they will not, they will find their own way. Their instant response to his suggestion was just showing they understood what he meant.
From Segovia's point of view Chapdelaine was being intentionally disrespectful. From Chapdelaine's point of view, he was trying to explore different ideas.
Segovia far outlived the fashion of the romantic style of his playing and he outlived the era of the maestro. On the scale of the maestro, Segovia was relatively mild.
I knew Toscanini's lead percussionist in the NBC Symphony, the only percussionist I ever knew with perfect pitch. More than once I tried to get Frank to tell of Toscanini's volcanic temper. Toscanini would burst into a towering rage, curse people in three languages and fire them on the spot. Usually they were back the next day.
"We who played under him don't tell Toscanini stories," Frank told me.
"Why not?"
"Because under him we played better than under anyone else."
The day of the maestro passed in the 1960s. Now the teacher is supposed to be your pal. The role of the maestro was the only one Segovia knew.
The maestro system and the present more friendly approach each has its strengths and weaknesses. Manners change. While they are changing misunderstandings arise. A given action means different things to different people, just as the same word can mean different things in different languages.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 22 2012 3:53:21
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: flamenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to Mark2)
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quote:
I think we both agreed that the music a classical guitarist has to draw upon is much larger in scope. What he thought solo flamenco guitar emphasized was virtuosity and expression of a specific culture, while a classical guitarist can interpret all the greatest composers regardless of nationality or style.
Well this point is made often and I think most agree on it. But actually, I feel exactly the opposite. I feel when I see classical guitarists perform, the scope of reptertoire is super limited to the point of predictable. If it's bach, it's always the same ol bach arranged for guitar. Violin or lute or cello standards. And always either in one direction or the other....the segovia romantic way or the J. Williams machine way.
Next sor guiliani etc the classcial period....boring and light weight as hell. Next the spanish classical....albeniz granados Torroba Rodrigo (F# E F#.....need I continue?) etc finally tremolo....which will it be? Recuerdos of course. A touch of south america with Barrios or Villa Lobos's limited offerings. Then if there need be more material to fill a program some weirdo atonal modern crap. That's it pretty much.
I was impressed by Roland Dyens because he composes and plays his own music despite always including one or more of the mentioned above, it is refreshing. He also introduces each program with a so called "improvised" piece and includes perhaps some jazz or popular standard arrangement. But he is unique in the pantheon of classical guitarists IMO.
Flamenco may be limited by form and flavor, but at least within the framework of the forms you have UNLIMITED creative freedom to compose or improvise, make variations of or even sneak in note for note interpretations of classics. In that sense I feel the scope is MUCH broader then what classical guitarists have been doing. For sure Segovia opened up the door for possibility by doing arrangements and encouraging modern composers....but since him it's been pretty much the same stuff going on.
In defense of classical players I saw a concert "Mano a Mano" with Cañizares and Jose Maria Gallardo del Rey...and sorry but the classical guy KILLED Cañizares in terms of tone and expression. His compas was really good and that was enough for all the rest to fall into place as being a great performer vs Cañizares who had that fast picado up the first string and that was about it. But still, that guy had some sort of flamenco background to be that good. But it was all spanish music they played anyway.
About Segovia, I have some stories. My father arranged the entire Violin suite 1 for guitar from key of Gm to Am. Segovia did the fugue from this in Am, and the Siciliano in A major. Cuz it sounds nice on guitar. Well because my dad did the whole suite he wanted to keep the key relations so it meant transposing Siciliano to key of C major. Segovia didn't like that...perhaps he didn't see the point to hold the orginal key relations of the suite when the tonality of the guitar was so important to him? Later my father played a piece of Segovia's own composition in front of him and segovia asked "that's nice....who composed it?". My dad was never sure if the guy was messing with him or really didn't recognize it. 
In a biography I skimmed, there was a chapter about flamenco in which segovia and a friend go to a tablao but he pretends his friend is segovia and he himself the student. The local flamenco guy wants him to show off so he did some arpegios and according to segovia, scared the hell out of these flamenco guys because if the student could play like that...imagine what the real segovia must play like. Anyway, for sure he seemed pretty full of himself in the face of flamenco. I don't think he was every truly jealous of any flamenco players until PDL came along and performed in Teatro Real. He claimed when asked about PDL that any of his own students had a wonderful technique but this thing PDL does trrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr (picado I assume) is NOT technique. I can only imagine the horror he felt after "rescuing" the guitar from the noisy tavern players and taking it to the big stage, to see the likes of PDL fill up that same Concert Hall by not playing "bach" but by playing....noisy tavern guitar music.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Mar. 22 2012 4:57:38
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
RNJ
Another factor which is utterly opaque to those who grew up after the 1960s is the complete change in manners since that time. I am old enough to have grown up under the old "maestro" system.
quote:
Romerito
Although it seems we have not always agreed, I have never meant any disrespect toward you and I respectfully disagree with you now. Although there doesn't seem to be as much respect in the younger generation (20s; I am 40), It would be a gross generalization to say that manners and respect do not exist anymore.
I have failed to make my point clear. I did not mean to imply that manners and respect ceased to exist. Manners always exist. They are the language of human interaction. What I meant to say was that the unfortunate aspect of the Segovia/Chapdelaine incident was that they were speaking two different languages, but using the same words.
quote:
Romerito
It would also be a generalization to say that the "maestro" system was the only system back then.
Any brief statement about manners is necessarily a generalization. Of course there were exceptions to the role of maestro. But in my personal experience the prevailing attitude among distinguished teachers of music, mathematics and the physical sciences was that of the maestro. My brother gives accounts of the maestro attitude among distinguished physicians and teachers of medicine, though he speaks fondly of one exception.
quote:
RNJ
From Segovia's point of view Chapdelaine was being intentionally disrespectful. From Chapdelaine's point of view, he was trying to explore different ideas.
quote:
Romerito
Fair enough, but taken in the whole context I still interpret it the same way.
quote:
RNJ
The day of the maestro passed in the 1960s. Now the teacher is supposed to be your pal. The role of the maestro was the only one Segovia knew.
quote:
Romerito
You are conflating being a pal with being a jerk.
That was not my intention. I have quite enjoyed attending master classes by very distinguished classical guitarists of more recent generations, and enjoyed the relaxed and congenial atmosphere.
quote:
Romerito
Segovia need not have been that way. He could have very kindly said something like "Young man, it is good that you use your head but it is as the master of this masterclass that I give you instruction. Use my fingerings in this class and you will eventually find your own voice."
Indeed. But unfortunately Segovia was offended by what he saw as Chapdelaine's intentional display of disrespect, just as I suspect you might be offended by the dictatorial attitude of a teacher who learned his manners in the beginning of the 20th century.
quote:
Romerito
By the way, Toscanini's behavior does not excuse Segovia's.
I didn't mean to justify Segovia's, Toscanini's or Chapdelaines actions, any more than I would justify a Salamancan using a double negative in Castilian. i just meant to point out that their responses arose from very different interpretations of the same actions, due to the manners they had internalized.
quote:
RNJ
A given action means different things to different people, just as the same word can mean different things in different languages.
quote:
Romerito
The point is to be careful in relationships with people, to be kind and caring, and if you are a teacher, above all, to be nurturing.
Nurturing was certainly not the prevailing attitude of the first half of the 20th century. I speak from personal experience. I profited greatly from teaching of some great maestros, and also from that of a couple of kind hearted and friendly individuals.
The maestros were not disrespectful toward their students. The relationship was a formal one, not a friendly one. Demanding the very best from students showed the maestros thought the students were capable of great things.
quote:
Romerito
Segovia still had more to do with the split between the flamenco guitar and the classical than any other single individual. Food for thought methinks.
And many flamencos of the mid-20th century reacted with exaggerated criticism of Segovia's playing. The best of the flamencos just ignored him, just as I, a lowly young fan, ignored the conservative aficionados who said Sabicas played too many notes.
My trumpet teacher was the first trumpet of the National Symphony and the first president of the International Trumpeters' Guild. He didn't approve of my playing jazz. I played it anyhow, just not around him. Trumpeters nowadays seem more ecumenical. I think guitarists are too. We had Grischa Goryachev here in Austin for a concert and master class at the 2010 Guitar Foundation of America festival, the biggest one so far.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 22 2012 8:59:23
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
Segovia still had more to do with the split between the flamenco guitar and the classical than any other single individual. Food for thought methinks.
Segovia notwithstanding, and that each genre may have borrowed from and influenced the other to a certain extent notwithstanding, there still would have occurred a split between flamenco and classical guitar. They are just too different to be subsumed under one category. As I have stated in previous posts, I don't think one is more "complicated" or "advanced" than the other. They are just different, and that difference would have developed and been recognized over time, from the turn of the 20th century over the past hundred years until today. Segovia's disparaging of flamenco had little to do with the split. To think so gives him too much credit for a development that would have been recognized in any case, with or without Segovia.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 22 2012 13:26:01
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Pimientito
Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella
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RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
Beginning with Barrios, Segovia had contact with him prior to the concurso of Granada in 1922. Barrios was already a formidable composer and had played La Catedral for Segovia, along with some other pieces....
Although there are some nice things about Segovia, I would like to think that if Barrios had had an international career, we could have either already forgotten Segovia, or we could situate him as an important figure, not THE important figure.
I completely agree. Barrios has emerged as probably the most prolific and important classical guitar composer of the last century. Not to take away any of Segovias contribution to the guitar, his output of arrangements was impressive and certainly those "one take " recordings he did in the 50's are superb.
However, Segovia was single minded in his mission to be the most well known and important guitarist on the planet. It seemed to me that he would say or do almost anything to keep his reputation and dismiss or even sabotage any competition. Its true that later in his career he supported many young players like Williams and Fisk but they really posed no professional threat to him. Segovia never talked about his encounter with Barrios but I'm sure it must have profoundly affected him that there was some lone genius out there with Barrios' ability.
Segovia said "I have only one teacher, and that is myself" This negated his own teacher, Miguel Llobet who really should have had a much more important place in Guitar history. By rights the legacy of the classical guitar should have been Arcas, Tarrega, Llobet and Segovia but Llobet has been largely forgotten as the greatest guitar player of his time. Segovias only contact with Tarrega was when he was present at the exhumation of Tarregas coffin.
Segovias ego really made him to believe that his approach was the only correct one. (sound familiar?) He disparaged Tarregas playing with out fingernails as "stupid". He berated flamenco players despite being quite exposed to flamenco in Granada. He befriended all the important artistic people at the time such as De Falla, Lorca, Picasso etc. and in doing so raised his status and reputation.
One can not help but admire the contribution of Segovia but I do question his brutal resolve, self importance and jealousy.
_____________________________
Follow my blog http://pimientito.wordpress.com/
"Ceremonial" by Mark Shurey "Pimientito". CD and digital download vailable on Amazon and
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Date Mar. 29 2012 8:31:03
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to Pimientito)
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Alberto López Poveda's "Andrés Segovia, Obra y Vida" is a recently published detailed biography. López was a good friend of Segovia, and the book is practically worshipful in tone. It also contains errors, at least a couple of them real howlers. All the same...
López reports that quite early in his career Segovia was nervous about his first performance in Valencia, where there were quite a few disciples of Tarrega. He worried that they wouldn't like his playing with nails. But it went well and Segovia was invited back.
Of Tarrega's two most prominent disciples who were active in the 20th century, Llobet played with nails, Pujol did not. Segovia and López both downplay Llobet's influence, and indeed Segovia was already embarked on a concert career when they met. Segovia spoke of Llobet with the greatest respect.
I read somewhere, but I no longer have the reference, that after he had become world famous Segovia refused to take one of Pujol's students at the summer school in Siena, saying the student couldn't be heard playing without nails.
I have a copy of "F. Tarrega, Doce Composiciones para Guitarra", Ricordi, Buenos Aires, edited by Isaias Savio. It's pretty old--the price stamped on the front is $1.75.
In the preface Savio writes,
"En 1900 su salud inspiró cuidados por manifestarse la arterio-esclerosis, y el maestro ya no pudo pulsar su guitarra con aquel sonido puro y cristalino que tanto había contribuído a sus éxitos, viéndose en cambio obligado a cortarse las uñas por defectos que en ellas aparecían. Pero no se desanimó por ello, sino que siguió estudiando y consiguió realizar audiciones, aunque no de mucha importancia, con buenos efectos de sonoridad."
"In 1900 his health gave cause for concern due to the appearance of arteriosclerosis [hardening of the arteries]. The maestro was unable to play his guitar with the pure and crystalline tone which had contributed so much to his success. He was obliged to cut his nails due to defects which appeared. But this didn't discourage him. He continued studying and was able to give concerts, though not very important ones, with good effects of sonority."[my translation]
Matanya Ophee, the classical publisher and historian, tells me that this is effectively a paraphrase of part of the entry in Domingo Pratt's famous "Diccionario". Pratt knew Tarrega personally.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 29 2012 23:04:43
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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I have read in more than one place that Williams began attending Segovia's summer school at Siena when Williams was 11 years old.
Williams on Segovia:
http://www.guitarteacher.com.au/johnwilliams.htm
"AP-L [interviewer]: Reading between the lines of your interview in George Clinton's book on Segovia some years ago, there seemed to be an edge of tension between you and Segovia. Could you enlighten us on that?
JW: Yes, there always was really, and it has come out more as years have passed and I've felt a little more confident in talking about it. To be honest, I feel it has become necessary for me to become open about what my reservations with Segovia were. It's all very well hiding behind respectful statements, but there was a personal gap between us that began in the mid-1950's [Williams was born in 1941 RNJ]. Segovia had organized, or was involved in organizing, a guitar competition in Switzerland and asked me to compete in it. At the time, I would have been the logical winner, so it was an attractive idea. But my father was against it, partly because I was still at school and also because he felt I was still too young. My mother, however, supported the idea of my entering, so in the end it was really left to me to make the decision. As it turned out, 1 decided not to enter, and very soon after received an extremely angry phone call from Segovia, in which he abused me roundly in Spanish and called me all sorts of names of names.
Anyway, we all got over that one, but in the years that followed there always seemed to be an edge of tension when he was present for Summer School in Siena. Mostly, the players there like Alirio Diaz and myself would teach each other, because Segovia wasn't always there a great deal, but when he did come, it often felt strained. As I've said on other occasions previously, he taught mainly by example - four bars here, four bars there, in which you were meant to imitate him - and I suppose that my training at the Royal College was giving me a more structured and structural approach to learning music, so it was sometimes hard to adapt to his very individual teaching style.
Having said all that, of course there were many positive aspects to Segovia and his influence on me as a guitarist and as a person. You couldn't help being influenced by him and his sound when you were as close to it as I was. And he was extremely generous and usually very sweet tempered most of the time. But it would be wrong, especially now that he is gone, to assume that there were never any difficult moments between us, because occasionally there were, especially musically. As time passed, I found my interpretive approach becoming more direct, more linear, whereas Segovia's was often shaped by the beautiful resonant qualities of his Hauser, which didn't suit either my personality or musical inclinations in either solo or chamber music. Also, Segovia emerged during the age of the other great soloists like Kreisler and Heifetz, and some would argue that their period sound is dated, and it may be, but you can't say its wrong, just different. But you can't change the fact that it all began with Segovia and his sound. We wouldn't be here now if it weren't for him."
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Date Mar. 30 2012 6:33:59
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: flemenco guitarist vs Classical ... (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: romerito
Richard, what are your thoughts now concerning previous discussions about Segovia and Chapdelaine. With Williams anecdotal evidence, do you still believe Chapdelaine was cruisin for a lecture?
I'm either not getting my point across, or I'm not understanding yours, or both.
Perhaps an analogy will help to clarify. Or maybe it will further muddy the waters.
I worked a fair amount in France on a US/French government technology sharing program. It was as much diplomacy as it was engineering. The people on both sides were selected not only for their technical expertise but also for their social skills.
I enjoyed the job immensely. One of the conclusions i drew was that the French are generally quite courteous. And their manners differ in many ways from Americans. For example, just down the street from our usual hotel was a small grocery shop. There was always a display of delicious looking fruit on the outside, just beside the door.
I got into the habit, whenever I took someone new to Paris, of warning them not to pick up, or even touch the fruit as they admired it. In France one tells the shopkeeper, "I would like three of those apples, please." The shopkeeper selects three apples, weighs them, packages them and collects the price. If you don't like one of the apples, you may not reject it, but you may glance at it significantly and ask for one more. You are entitled to expect the additional one to be a good one. The shopkeeper may even glance at you as he selects it, to gauge your approval.
I warned newcomers not to touch the fruit, because in the USA you pick over the produce at the supermarket, feeling it and even picking it up to smell it to check for ripeness. This behavior would be guaranteed to infuriate a French shopkeeper, and to dismay any French onlooker, but in America it is the norm.
I could multiply examples of Americans unintentionally annoying French people to the point that the French people not only displayed their annoyance by body language, but actually said something about it. For the French are not only studiously polite, they assume everyone else knows the rules. The rules are as ingrained as their language. Any continued breaking of the rules is likely to be seen either as intentional rudeness or as a lack of decent training.
By the same token, it is a cliche in America that French people are rude and supercilious.
In fact, it's just different manners. The Americans aren't being intentionally rude, and the French aren't being sniffy just for the hell of it.
My take on the Segovia/Chapdelaine incident is that Segovia, having internalized the manners of the maestro style master class, mistook Chapdelaine's questioning as intentional disrespect. In my interpretation Chapdelaine didn't mean to antagonize Segovia, and Segovia was misinterpreting Chapdelaine's intent, due the the manners he had internalized long before.
In Williams' case, he was taught more by his father and later by his teachers at the Royal Academy than he was taught by Segovia. It must have been at first puzzling, and later distressing for Williams to see Segovia ignoring serious technical problems, and to see him teaching interpretation only by example, not through analysis.
It must have been puzzling to Segovia to see William's nonconformity to the maestro/disciple model which Segovia had observed, but never experienced himself as disciple. For years every student had treated Segovia with the unconditional respect and courtesy a cadet offers a general in the military. That was how things were done in the first part of the 20th century.
I add that my father was a general, and I grew up seeing military courtesy at close range. Within the family it was not observed. Due to the different manners for different occasions, most of us military kids became aware of manners as observers as well as participants.
I worked most of my career as an engineer on military projects. Toward the end of my working career I told one particularly offensive general that high rank was one of the severest tests of character, and he failed. This wasn't suicidal bravery on my part. The general was in no position to harm me.
Rumor has it that there was much more to the Segovia/Williams situation than Williams talks about, but as far as I know it's just rumor, so I won't go any further. I'll just say that if the rumors were true, it placed Williams in a very difficult situation.
Note that Williams says, despite the tension between them, Segovia was almost always generous and sweet tempered. Michael Lorimer and Eliot Fisk say the same, only without the tension.
Nobody's perfect. Segovia could be bad tempered and arrogant. John Duarte in his little book says that Segovia had lots of amusing anecdotes, but he never heard one where Segovia was the butt of the joke. Once Segovia complained to Duarte about all the bad guitarists he had to listen to everywhere he went. Duarte pointed out that these were the core of Segovia's fan base. "You are right, John," Segovia replied. "Without all the sinners there would be no need for the pope."
I've seen Williams behave in a master class in a way that disappointed me. I've sat through whole performances by him that I thought were terrible, despite his flawless technique. I've also heard him play magnificently, and I've seen him give the warmest encouragement to a really outstanding young player.
I don't know Chapdelaine.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 30 2012 16:46:31
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