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RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT
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vuduchyld
Posts: 170
Joined: Feb. 20 2011
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 RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (in reply to mezzo)
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quote:
Could you please define what (for u) characterize such professional level?
I'm not sure whether you want me to characterize the playing or what the level looks like.
If you're asking me what professional playing looks like, I'm sorry, I really can't describe it. It's pretty subjective and all I can say is I'd know it when I saw it. Play some of Grisha's clips next to this one and I think you'd see a big difference in the crispness of the playing.
If you're asking me to characterize the definition of professional, I'd say that a professional should earn most or all of his/her living by performing the activity. If one plays 3-4 classes per week for $30 per class, I wouldn't say that qualifies, personally. If one plays a few shows per year on top of that and earns a few thousand dollars per year, I wouldn't refer to that person as a professional guitar player.
I know there could be various interpretations and people would probably disagree with me, but that's how I'd characterize it. So what I'm saying is that in my opinion, it is unlikely that the person in the videos would earn enough money playing flamenco in a year to support his family. He might be able to play for classes and do a few gigs, but unless he wants to kill jackrabbits and squirrels for food and live in a van, I don't think it would support a family. My opinion is that the dream to do nothing but play flamenco is probably a very selfish indulgence.
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Date Feb. 25 2012 13:42:54
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (in reply to vuduchyld)
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quote:
I know there could be various interpretations and people would probably disagree with me
 yes there are a few
I never liked that word "pro" id never ever use it to describe myself, but i do earn my money playing flamenco, i am not rich but not starving either between classes, privates, regular gigs, shows i survive and i don't live in a van...just living the selfish dream 
ive done the real job and playing (probably will again if i need to)...but had maybe about $100 more a week which went on lunch everyday, petrol etc..and I was a whole lot more unhappy, tired, stressed and bitter
i dont know what life if all about if not trying to pursue ones happiness..whatever that is
I understand that some don't have that luxury cause they have wife's and kids to think about, fair enough...but..we don't marry people out of the goodness of our hearts, or to be kind to them, we marry them in relation to how they make us feel...in a sense we are all selfishly indulging....just in different things
EDIT
in a way i fell all you married men are a little selfish, want to keep taking up the same woman's time every night, and noone else is allowed near her...well not me !! i have too much respect for them....i just bother them for 5 minutes maybe once week and let them live their happy, clean and hygienic life...away from my dirty laundry
JK.
_____________________________
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Date Feb. 25 2012 13:51:50
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Adam
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
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RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (in reply to vuduchyld)
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Kehati: Florian's advice is good, but it shouldn't be used (and I'm worried it will) to further your attitude of dependence. Try what he said, see if it works out. Hopefully you'll have lots of gigs and a good stream of money coming in. But if not, don't blame your parents, your wife, other musicians, hotel owners, and all the rest of Malaysia. If the market isn't there, you might not be able to create it, and that's the point at which you can keep trying on the side, but also man up and realize that you have a family, and it's your job to support them. If you do that by making money on guitar, then great, but if not, no good can come of sitting around complaining, or chasing after a dragon, at your family's expense.
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Date Feb. 25 2012 17:20:01
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vuduchyld
Posts: 170
Joined: Feb. 20 2011
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RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (in reply to Florian)
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quote:
yes there are a few
Well, Florian, if you earn all or most of your living playing flamenco, then I'd say you're a professional. It's what you do for a living.
If you don't live in a mansion or support a family, that doesn't mean you're not a professional. If you've scaled back your needs to match an income that might be lower than it would be in other fields, that's just being smart. Still a professional.
Honestly, having a family is a lifestyle choice. So is playing guitar professionally. And the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. They are both just individual choices.
My individual choices would never have led me to playing guitar professionally. Before or after I started learning flamenco, before or after starting a family, I would NEVER have chosen to try to earn a living from playing music. It's just not a lifestyle choice that interests me. I love to play and sometimes I think I'd love to do nothing but play for hours and hours and hours every day. But having been raised in the circumstances I was raised in, I'm just not that interested in the insecurity and variability of the work schedule and the pay. I like having a job with a salary, sick days, and all that. Music works great for me as a supplement to that.
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Date Feb. 25 2012 17:20:22
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vuduchyld
Posts: 170
Joined: Feb. 20 2011
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RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (in reply to mezzo)
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quote:
vuduchyld thanks for the clarification
I have really no idea of the standards in the flamenco professsional aera. But I think for the majority of them it's very hard to earn alot of money. Of course they are stratifications and a few should received very high incomes for their shows.
If I understand well, in Andalucia there are bunch of flamenco artists who live or have lived in kind of miserable conditions. Some big names who are struggling for a decent living. I heard these stories and complaining tons of times in interviews (via YT videos). Principaly coz the bigs festivals managment always hire the sames persons and let the others with scarces possibilities in terms of artistical incomes.
So according to your definition of what is a professional I could easily claim that alot of Big flamenco names (including first class) would be out of the categorization.
For the other side of your judgement, i can't say nothing... Sure if we compare kehati with Tomatito himself or with Grisha or with Nunez, he no longer has to wash the dishes in a restaurant
I'm sure you are right. There probably are a lot of big flamenco names who do not earn a living playing flamenco. (Another great reason to get an effin' job.)
My wife is good friends with a guy from Seville who sustained himself and his wife (a dancer) by playing flamenco guitar for many years. He did gigs, he recorded albums, he might have done a movie soundtrack, even. Made a good living. Would definitely fit the definition of professional, really, whatever the definition might have been. As the economy got worse in 2008 and 2009, the gigs got less frequent. Eventually, in 2010, I believe, he and his wife moved the the US because he couldn't make money in Spain. I think he might have played 2nd or 3rd chair with Jose Tanaka for part of a tour and I know he's done some of his own gigs in the States, but I'm not sure what he's up to these days.
He's an incredible player, no doubt. But ultimately, Deniz is right. If it doesn't pay, you're not professional. If the market disappears and he has to wash cars for a living, that makes him a professional car-washer, not a professional guitar player, because washing cars is what he does as a profession. And if that market disappears to the point that Paco himself can't get paid, then Paco may be world-class or he may be the best in the world, but not a professional.
It's no different from tiddlywinks or scrabble. Like flamenco guitar, it may take great skill to play world-class level scrabble or tiddlywinks, but if there isn't a professional circuit to support it, you couldn't very well be a professional. You couldn't earn a living.
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Date Feb. 25 2012 17:36:20
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gbv1158
Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy
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RE: Need opinions EXTREMLY IMPORTANT (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
Now i'm going to
1. learn all basic compas and solo flamenco guitar songs- for working with the dancer ( 2-3 shows a month )
2. find, re arrange the romantic tunes to flamenco style - for restaurants or hotels
3. make demo cds for jobs ( recording studio - sessionist, hotel etc )
4. take care of my health...try to minimize my cigarettes.
5. pray, pray, pray, pray, pray...........
well.... you forgot n.6 : keep in touch with us, in the foro!! :-)
kehati : you are very talented!...trust yourself!, be optimistic! follow the Florian's suggestions!, you will see, you'll get it!
@Florian : you are such a NICE person!
ciao,
giambattista
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Date Feb. 25 2012 19:32:58
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