Rasgueado - which fingers

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person

Posts: 3
Joined: Jul. 20 2004

Rasgueado - which fingers

I was told recently that nowadays some players only use 3 fingers (a m i ) to play rasgueado. Is this true and is there a reason for this trend? I am used to using my
e(little) a m i fingers.

Any feedback appreciated.

Thanks,

Emilio

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 9 2004 2:08:40

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to person)

Hi Emilio,
The little finger isn't really used in rasgueado (as a separate movement).
Sometimes players will use the little finger to make a slightly thicker sound, but the main strokes are done with a m i as a group by themselves or in combination with the thumb.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 9 2004 8:27:59

Billyboy

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to Ron.M)

It seems to be a modern trend not to use the pincky, and you can get the same effect by spreadying out the strokes using a m i, but I think it sounds fuller using e as well with things like Solea, Siguiria, dont forget to tuck the fingers behind the side of the thumb which is bent and resting on a bass string. One other thing is, with "Panaderos Flamenco" piece, it is impossable to play without using the pincky for the rasguedo
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 9 2004 9:40:16

person

Posts: 3
Joined: Jul. 20 2004

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to Ron.M)

Thanks for that. I have never had access to a flamenco teacher as there are none in my area. I learnt classical years ago and have used the method books of Martin and Serrano. Serrano teachers a 5 finger with the pinky and Martin teaches a 4 finger with pinky. I bought a book which was published in 1995 by Marraccini and that shows the 4 finger effect created with a m i i. I am finding switching over to a m i i really difficult. I also learnt the triplet rasqueado with p e i and find the p m p harder to execute. Old habits are hard to break.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 9 2004 12:41:21

Billyboy

Posts: 389
Joined: Aug. 18 2003

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to person)

i also fing p m p impossable, when I discovered p e i for triplets it was like a revolution, also when I started tucking my fingers behind my thumb was a similar discoverey. Serrano has some unique ways of doing rasgueado, not the norm, which part of the world do you live?
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 9 2004 12:49:05

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to person)

quote:

I am finding switching over to a m i i really difficult.

Emilio,
The use of the index finger up and down is very important in Flamenco guitar as it enables you to "lengthen" rasguados by a fraction of a beat here and there which is pretty necessary in playing modern, highly syncopated falsetas.
So stick with it. Once it "clicks" it will be as natural as your older method and will give you more control.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 9 2004 13:19:57

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to person)

Hi Emilio!

Do you mean the "rather"modern rasg. ?

i up....m down....i down?

It is a triptet, but not playes as such, played the same way in time as xami ( x for little finger)

you can do it continously too.

They play this one, to get more rithm in the rasg.

you can hear it for instance in Rompesterones, a tango from Moraito.

greetings, Peter.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 9 2004 13:20:18

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to Billyboy)

quote:

also fing p m p impossable

Once you crack it, it is a wonderful triplet. I am even starting to use it in the tangos ramate - a single fast triplet, rather that a-m-i or p-n-i. Try practising in a vertical solid surface like a small cigar tin.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 9 2004 13:59:26

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

Try practising in a vertical solid surface like a small cigar tin.

...or the head of the person sitting in front of you at the cinema, concert hall, bus etc...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 9 2004 16:03:44

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to person)

I think we should go back to the basics with this discussion. I know we have a bunch of non-posters that may be a bit confused. The reason I say this, is I was in email contact with one of our members, and he was not even aware that newer rasqueado methods existed.

There may be more, but I am aware of at least five methods of rasqueado’s. The first being the method of loading the fingers into the palm of the hand and popping them out one at a time. For sake of argument, I will call this the “old style”. Although important to learn, this method is not being used a great deal. Many players have a very difficult time getting the fingers back and loaded before the next set of down strokes are made. I have a friend of mine that has tried in vain for years to get a continuous rasqueado using this method.

A more resent variation is to load the fingers behind each other versus the palm. In other words, the little finger loads behind the ring finger, which loads behind the middle, which loads behind the index. Each finger then pops off the finger that is in front of it.

I believe the method being used by many contemporary players is to load the fingers off the thumb. In this method, the tip joint of the thumb is bent somewhat and is placed on the “A” or low “E” string (depending on the cord being played). What we then do is place (load) the ring, middle and index fingers behind the thumb. The trick is to “flick” each finger off the thumb like you flick a bug off a tabletop. In this method, speed, or velocity of the fingers popping off the thumb is more important then brute force. In fact the trick in learning it is to “not” over power the fingers, but relax. You also want the fingers to just barely touch the strings. Don’t dig in, it sounds terrible. To make the rasqueado continuous, just add an upstroke with the index finger. What I like about this method is it’s not tiring and keeps the hand in the same position as picado and arpeggios.

The forth method is done with a thumb upstroke followed by different combinations of down strokes with the fingers, the most common being the ring and index which makes a “triplet”. Many contemporary players use this triplet. Although not used much, is a thumb upstroke, followed by down stokes with all four fingers. This rasqueado is very lyrical and smooth sounding. The thumb only executes upstrokes. This form of rasqueado is executed with the fingers in mid air. In other words they are not loaded in the palm or behind the thumb. The trick is to have the thumb move down with the index down stoke, but not play the strings. Also, as the index and thumb move down, the little, ring and middle fingers should be moving back up to be in position.

The fifth is also a triplet, which usually uses only the thumb and middle finger. You will hear many players referring to it as a “p,m,p triplet”. This rasqueado starts with a thumb upstroke, followed by a down stroke of the middle finger, followed by a down stroke of the thumb. The middle finger should be held out, almost rigid. The thumb is also held rigid. This rasqueado is performed by rotating the wrist in a back and forth twisting motion, like turning a doorknob. The ring and middle finger are sometimes held together for more power on the down stroke.

One trick to get rasqueado’s smooth and even is to set a metronome at about 70 or 80 and play each finger on the beat, including the upstroke with the index (if used). Gradually increase the metronome speed. The best advice is to start out playing them very, very slow. The last bit of advice is to mute the strings with your left hand, so you can hear what your right hand is doing.

There are hundreds of rasqueado, but most all are variations of the above five.

Have fun.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 9 2004 20:19:46

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to person)

Nice post, Pat. What he wrote will give almost any of us lots of work to do for quite awhile. I thought one thing you said was very important--don't dig in. The good sound comes from just lightly brushing the strings. Each stroke should happen very quickly, there is not a sound of strum, but one strike. Each strike is quick like a rattlesnake, but light like a flat rock skipping over water. This is how you get a nice sound.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 9 2004 22:41:26

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to person)

Miguel,

Well said. Not to get melodramatic, but the reason I wrote the post in the first place is to give back a bit of what I have learned from good folks like you. I think we take it for granted that just because we know this stuff, we assume everyone else does or should. All I need to do is flash back a couple of years ago. Trust me, I didn't know a "pmp" from an XYZ.

Personally I hope this forum stays grounded (where it is now), and not be the treasure trove a few snob elitists that scare away the new folks. I know for a fact that we have visitors all day long that would love to ask some basic questions, but feel intimidated.

In fact, I have an idea or two that I will toss out tomorrow.

Pat

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 9 2004 23:11:10

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to person)

Pat, I hope that's not the case. We're a friendly forum, so if anyone has questions, feel free to toss them out.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 10 2004 3:47:20

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to person)

quote:

Pat, I hope that's not the case. We're a friendly forum, so if anyone has questions, feel free to toss them out

Mike,

We know we are bunch of good people that are willing to share, but have we really put the welcome mat out? We have 179 members and I would venture that most of the post are from no more than a dozen. A lot of folks are not as outgoing as you and I.

More thoughts in a day or so.

Pat

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 10 2004 4:36:06

mentrida

Posts: 55
Joined: Jun. 19 2004

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to person)

Pat,
Thanks, that's a great post and helps clarify a lot.

Do I take it that most of you choose whatever rasgeado works best, or feels best, as long as the count is right for the palo?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 11 2004 2:47:02

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to person)

quote:

Thanks, that's a great post and helps clarify a lot.

Do I take it that most of you choose whatever rasgeado works best, or feels best, as long as the count is right for the palo?

SJ

You’re most welcome. What's interesting is I found it helpful as well. When I first started writing it I only had three, and then four and wound up with five! If we put our heads together, we can probably come up with more.

Yes, I think most of us do use what we feel fits or are comfortable with.

Pat

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 11 2004 5:44:22

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to mentrida)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mentrida
Pat,
Thanks, that's a great post and helps clarify a lot.

Do I take it that most of you choose whatever rasgeado works best, or feels best, as long as the count is right for the palo?

Yes, pretty much. Although you have to experiment a lot and work on things a lot before you completely discard them. Often the tiniest little alteration (eg in angle of fingers to strings) can make the difference between the technique really working, or not working.

Sometimes, you will come back to something you couldn't do before, only to find it suddenly clicks.

The process of experimentation and refinement never ends really.

Jon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 11 2004 9:42:50

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to mentrida)

Also, sometimes seeing in person, live, or on a video the technique can really open things up, and help you understand how it is done and should sound.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 11 2004 14:34:15

rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to person)

Small comment, I am a fledgling classical/flamenco player and have the benefit of several good teachers, I have lots of questions (and have posted such) but when it comes to commenting or suggesting alternatives for others, I dont feel that I have the required expertise to do so. There might be small additions I could add, but for the most part, probably dont feel comfortable as yet with sticking my two sense in as I might be instructing someone wrongly. I think there are certainly better players than I who could offer truly expert advice. As far as ras goes, I think Vincente Amigo does the ami one and accents with the "i" the traditional one is with the pinkie. The only other comment I could add that might help is that one teacher of mine suggested flicking out the pinkie then relaxong the hand, then the a, relaxing etc until it becomes smoother. It must be noted that a ras is a series of seperate strikes rather than a flurry of strikes. This worked well for me until I saw another player who's ras was a very relaxed, almost nonchalant series that is the correct way. That is what I endeavor to practice now. I hope this helps.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 11 2004 18:28:56

Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to person)

Great thread guys, helps out a bunch

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2005 3:15:37

Jamey

Posts: 187
Joined: Jul. 7 2004
From: Winnipeg, Canada

RE: Rasgueado - which fingers (in reply to person)

The main reason you see sami falling out of favour is essentially because it is hard to get the hang of. It takes a very long time with a lot of practise to get the separation and even more so to get any power out of your little finger. Then you get into a final stage of learning it where you work on balancing the force of all strikes to even out between them all. This normally results in working the even strokes up to more power and control. True, you don't want to over strain the fingers but you WILL eventually learn to "giver 'er" when you've managed to get the control part down.

The traditional or "old" style rasgueado is simply falling by the way-side because it's harder to learn cleanly and continuously. I do like it and now appreciate it more than the more "modern" ones when I hear it done well and continuously. The modern ones become very obvious and easy to pick out when listening. It's actually more of a surprise when a good continuous "traditional" four stroke ras is done (all down strokes) because the sound is different and you immediate appreciate how much went into getting it that smooth and percussive.

Most players are using the rhythmic varieties to get a groove going but none of these newer approaches manage to give the full range of sounds that rasgueados used to be used for. I've heard old recordings where the sound comes off like a driving rain storm. They can be percussive and rhythmic like a snare drum or continous in tone like falling rain. You simply can't get that continous tone when there's an upstroke simply because the upstroke's sound is different. Still, they're all good and it's always fun to flail away with some variation just to play with the rhythm and tone.

Learn the "old" ones first, then follow that with the modern ones. You'll be happy that you did in the long run (if not a little bit frustrated in the short term). Separation is key, in very much the same way as it is in tremolo.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2005 3:43:55