Philosophy book on flamenco baile jondo

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avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

Philosophy book on flamenco baile jondo

Hola todos!

As some of you may know I am currently completing my Masters in Philosophy in Paris. One of the requirements of the Masters is to write a 'Memoire' which is basically a mini-thesis of 120-140 pages.
I am very excited because the academic board has agreed to my suggestion, so I'm going to be writing my 'Memoire' on flamenco

I am not sure yet as to which direction this memoire will take but there will be very strong echoes of Nietzsche and Deleuze in there.

Anyways... whilst doing my research I stumbled upon a little book that I really wish to recommend to anyone who might have an interest in philosophy, and more specifically aesthetics. It's a book called (literally translated) 'The Dancer of Solitudes' by Georges Didi-Huberman.

Didi-Huberman is a contemporary French philosopher who writes mainly on post-modern aesthetic theories. He is also a very accomplished flamenco guitarist and a flamenco fanatic. It comes as no surprise then that he has written a book on flamenco... although the book focuses on what he calls 'baile jondo' in general and the baile of Israel Galvan in particular.
Unfortunately it has not been translated into English, but if you can read French, this is a gem... beautifully written and with a very serious philosophical content... highly highly highly recommended.

http://minuit.nuxit.net/f/index.php?sp=liv&livre_id=2335

Saludos,

Avi

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2011 10:56:45

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to avimuno)

Interesting!

I sent you PM on another flamenco aspects affinity.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2011 17:25:18

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to avimuno)

Hi Ruphus!

Thank you for your PM... I have decided to reply here as this might interest someone and any feedback/contribution would be really appreciated.

I should actually explain what I'm trying to do more accurately... it's not so much a 'philosophy of flamenco', that would be pretentious and not very useful at the end of the day, as it is a 'philosophy in flamenco'. I guess that the best example I can give here to illustrate my point would be what Gilles Deleuze writes in the introduction of his first book on cinema... he explains that he is not doing a philosophy of cinema but that cinema creates and makes use of concepts that philosophy needs to study for itself.
Bare in mind that Deleuze is a Nietzschean and in consequence, his conception of philosophy itself is very specific and has nothing to do with the classic definition... philosophy is not the research of the truth but it is quite simply the creation of concepts. 'Democracy', for example, is a philosophical concept.
And throughout both his books on cinema (which I very highly recommend to any film aficionado) he extracts concepts that are natural to the cinematic art ('movement' and 'time' amongst others) and makes use of them philosophically in order to develop a very unique critique of modern political thought.

I, of course, do not pretend to be Deleuze but my undertaking is definitely inspired what he's done with cinema. There are concepts in flamenco that deserve to be studied philosophically. As such, I'm proposing the following layout for my memoire. This layout is very very basic and will most definitely change in the next 2 years, but this is pretty much what I'm trying to do.
I can see three aspects of flamenco that deserve a particular philosophical attention and that Didi-Huberman has not really covered in his book (there would be no point in doing what he's done already of course):

- The Tragic: this is obviously inspired by Nietzsche's study of tragedy in the 'Birth of Tragedy', but with a particular focus on the 'Apollonian' and 'Dionysian' dichotomy. This dichotomy is present throughout flamenco... once can say that Camaron's singing and phrasing are Dionysian, whilst PdL/Tomatito's guitar playing/harmony are Apollonian. This is of course a very simple way of putting things... but what I'm trying to head towards is not so much conceiving Apollonian and Dionysian as a formal dichotomy but rather as trying to show that the Dionysian, as a 'line of flight', might be a way of transforming the Apollonian... Bergson's concept of 'duration' might be of major help here. As a side note, Henri Matisse has always considered his work, especially the 'Fauve' and the 'American Dance' as being exactly this... the Dionysian as a line of flight out of the Apollonian, but in order to transform the Apollonian.

If I can manage this part fairly well, it should lead me into the second part...

- The Diagram. This is a concept created by Deleuze in 'A Thousand Plateaus'... it is, to put it simply, 'what lies underneath an act of creation'. Deleuze for example argues that Francis Bacon (the painter) is an amazing example of 'diagrammatic painting/expression' in his book on the said painter. I think that there is such a thing as a 'flamenco diagram'... which would require a very serious research/study of the history of flamenco... and which would have to be centered around the question 'why does a people choose to start singing like that, to start playing rhythm like that, to start playing guitar like that etc' (when I say 'start', I am not here referring to an 'event', but to a cultural appropriation that can take centuries)... in other words, the flamencos have created a diagram which has lead to a certain way to singing/dancing/playing guitar.

And this should lead into the last part...

- the Micro-Politic: flamenco as a 'minor artform'... minor does not mean 'lesser' but 'minority'... coming out of the diagram is an artform that is the vital expression of a people... this people (peuple/pueblo) created flamenco as much as flamenco created them and gave them a conscience (in the philosophical sense)... 'We must write for the people who are always missing... because the people are always becoming' (Deleuze).

So these are the different trajectories I have... it will require a lot of research and a lot of work, but I am very excited!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2011 18:51:16

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to avimuno)

Oh, and thanks for the mentioning of Wing Tsun... I had heard of it but never really read anything about it.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Saludos,

Avi

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2011 18:52:48

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to avimuno)

Isn´t it fascinating how flamenco in a world-wide Hollywood culture of obligatory and votived cheerfullness, has managed to reach people outside of Andalusia and Spain?

Portugal, unique in Europe with its mentality that accepts ( and partially even admires ) the object of sorrow, has musical genre(s) that appear(s) even more sad to me, but - as you´d expect - they never reached international public.

Eventhough there have been examples of sad musical genres, with most prominently the blues, I believe it is the flamencos virtuousity that pr!cked up people´s ears.
That and the fact that it tramps and extrovertedly ( if that´s correct in English ) revolts against the sorrow / not really giving in to depression.

Similar to the blues who overcomes the cheery obligation by its rhythmic being.
-

To me philosophy remains the mother of science, just besides.
-

quote:

ORIGINAL: avimuno

Oh, and thanks for the mentioning of Wing Tsun... I had heard of it but never really read anything about it.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Saludos,

Avi

Aside of that physcial conclusiveness conveys optimally with advanced practise, Sifu Kernspecht has summrized Wing Tsun principles as well as basic functional characteristics of remaining budo ( other than Escrima ) systematically and very congruently with his book "On Single Combat".
http://www.realisticselfdefense.net/WingTsunBook.html

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2011 16:18:40

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to avimuno)

I wrote my thesis on Lorca, "The Forces of nature" in his rural plays ( Bodas De Sangre, Bernarda Alba and Yerma) with references to various philosophers. The idea that Lorca's characters had no free will. Lorca's essay on Duende was very helpful to me and suggest you read it just in case it is useful to you. You can find a translation on line.

Another book written by a philosopher friend here in Granada was also an inspiration. He wrote about life beginning with the babies cry and Morente said of this that it made him think of the cry of flamenco, that it stems from that first primordial cry, a fight for breathe and life.

_____________________________

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http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2011 17:15:51

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to avimuno)

Thanks for the recommendations Kate!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2011 23:58:11

Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to avimuno)

quote:

ORIGINAL: avimuno

- The Tragic: this is obviously inspired by Nietzsche's study of tragedy in the 'Birth of Tragedy', but with a particular focus on the 'Apollonian' and 'Dionysian' dichotomy. This dichotomy is present throughout flamenco... once can say that Camaron's singing and phrasing are Dionysian, whilst PdL/Tomatito's guitar playing/harmony are Apollonian. This is of course a very simple way of putting things... but what I'm trying to head towards is not so much conceiving Apollonian and Dionysian as a formal dichotomy but rather as trying to show that the Dionysian, as a 'line of flight', might be a way of transforming the Apollonian...

THANK YOU. I have been saying this for years. Flamenco is one of the greatest laboratories in the world today for examing both the role of the Dionysian in everyday life and its ideal interaction with the Apollonian. Nietzsche would have freakin' loved it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2011 13:46:48

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to avimuno)

quote:

THANK YOU. I have been saying this for years. Flamenco is one of the greatest laboratories in the world today for examing both the role of the Dionysian in everyday life and its ideal interaction with the Apollonian. Nietzsche would have freakin' loved it.

Oh he totally would! Actually Georges Bataille wrote a lot about the tragic in Spanish culture... with special focus on bullfighting... you can find some very interesting stuff in his book on eroticism.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2011 17:57:19

Adam

Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to avimuno)

Are there English translations? If so I could probably pop by the philosophy library to check it out.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2011 18:00:29

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to avimuno)

There are English translations indeed... in fact he writes about the Dionysian in bullfighting in several books, here are the major ones:

http://www.amazon.com/Story-Eye-Georges-Bataille/dp/0872862097/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1324062200&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Erotism-Death-Sensuality-Georges-Bataille/dp/0872861902/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1324062200&sr=1-3

Michel Leiris wrote an amazing book on the subject but it has not been translated into English unfortunately... here it is though...

http://www.amazon.fr/Tauromachie-expérience-dionysiaque-Georges-Bataille/dp/2843945267

Enjoy amigo!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2011 18:08:48

vuduchyld

Posts: 170
Joined: Feb. 20 2011

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to avimuno)

I have to recommend this one since I know the author pretty well!

http://www.amazon.com/Flamenco-Conflicting-Michelle-Heffner-Hayes/dp/0786439238/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324064536&sr=8-1

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2011 18:43:53

Brendan

Posts: 355
Joined: Oct. 30 2010

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to avimuno)

"This 'mysterious power which everyone senses and no philosopher explains' is, in sum, the spirit of the earth, the same duende that scorched the heart of Nietzsche, who searched in vain for its eternal forms on the Rialto Bridge and in the music of Bizet, without knowing that the duende he was pursuing had leaped straight from the Greek mysteries to the dancers of Cadiz or the beheaded, Dionysian scream of Silverio's siguiriya."

--Frederico Garcia Lorca 'Play and Theory of the Duende'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2011 22:44:45

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2011 0:08:20

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to avimuno)

Thanks a lot for the contributions and recommendations guys... I've heard of Michelle Heffner Hayes book but haven't read it yet unfortunately... I will definitely check it out!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2011 0:25:49

vuduchyld

Posts: 170
Joined: Feb. 20 2011

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

This is the way flamenco scholarship should proceed in my opinion. It is not pretentious nor is it unscientific. She really tackles the postmodern dilemma head-on.

It is personal but does not subjectively favor any particular position.

She thanks you for your comments!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2011 3:20:02

vuduchyld

Posts: 170
Joined: Feb. 20 2011

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to avimuno)

quote:

Thanks a lot for the contributions and recommendations guys... I've heard of Michelle Heffner Hayes book but haven't read it yet unfortunately... I will definitely check it out!

Let me know...I might be able to find a copy or two around the house!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2011 3:21:11

Brendan

Posts: 355
Joined: Oct. 30 2010

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to avimuno)

If you're interested in tragedy, have a look at Miguel de Unamuno.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2011 22:44:04

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to avimuno)

Perhaps the paper on philosophy and flamenco should acknowledge the difficult-to-trace connections with Asia. One place to start would be with the Sufi philosopher Aziz Balouch who made a remarkable entry into the Madrid flamenco scene in 1934.
http://www.flamenco-world.com/magazine/about/aziz_balouch/balouch.htm
I met him in London in the 60’s and heard him sing. His voice did not have the typical rough edge of cante jondo. His refinement was not the lyrical sound of Juanito Valderrama (despised by many flamencos) but rather in the purity of the sound. It’s difficult to describe but I found it just as exciting to listen to as more traditional cante. I was a young student at the time searching for a teacher to help me improve my flamenco playing and I answered an advertisement that led me to the Sufi’s flat. Sadly his guitar playing was rather primitive and he recommended someone else. The famous poster displaying his name in larger letters than that of Ramon Montoya was on the wall of his studio flat and he made sure that I noticed it!
Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2011 15:11:13

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2011 17:38:35

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2011 19:13:10

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito

Arabs conquered what is now Pakistan and North India-the Mughals

All in all we need more rigorous scholarship whether in philosophy or musicology.

Weren't the Mughals Turkic and Mongol by descent, and largely Persian by culture? Though their conquest of India resulted in Islamic rule of large areas, I don't believe they spoke Arabic, even before they adopted the language of their subjects.

The aristocracy of the Mughal Empire, the conquered local princes, remained largely Hindu, as did the general population. Indeed it was Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb's alienation of his Hindu aristocracy that provided the foothold for the British East India Company.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2011 20:42:49

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 19 2011 22:47:05

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito

Yes, YOU are right. I should not have implied that the Mughals were Arab. That is missing the point however. You are thinking dualistically..."if not this, then that."

Umm, in fact I was thinking rather boringly, "If they're not Arabs, then they're not Arabs."

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2011 12:12:53

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to avimuno)

Typical scientist.
I dig that.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2011 16:46:57

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Yes, YOU are right. I should not have implied that the Mughals were Arab. That is missing the point however. You are thinking dualistically..."if not this, then that."

You did not "imply" that Mughals were Arab; you clearly stated that "Arabs conquered what is now Pakistan and North India-the Mughals."

It is not "missing the point" to expect historical accuracy from someone who states, "We need more rigorous scholarship...."

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2011 18:01:16

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2011 23:56:17

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Philosophy book on flamenco bail... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito
This is a FIRST STEP in understanding how Flamenco's scales came to be used the way they are.

Sala'am, O Part-Arabic Master!

I will be 74 years old the day before Christmas, and even after visiting more than fifty countries, (including India again last year) I must confess it never once occurred to me that one culture might affect another.

I thought all those people in Peru simply happened to invent Spanish like the Spaniards did, and just enjoyed speaking it alongside Quechua. That's Macchu Pichu in the photo to the left. It's this big tourist attraction there in Peru.

Do you mean to say that all that classical music we heard at Varanasi (that's this town in India) actually may have been adulterated by someone else's tunes? Was that what the dude was on about when he kept raving over history and ancient masters and pre-Mughal and Bengali and Karnatic and stuff, and plinking away at his big old deformed guitar like he was trying to show us something?

And what about the poor devil who was sitting down and holding the butt of the fiddle against his leg, instead of tucking it up under his chin the way he was meant to do? He'll never get anywhere like that. Why was he never taught to play properly?

And the sad dude playing those tiny toy drums couldn't afford any sticks.

We humbly thirst for knowledge, O Part-Arabic Master. Pray tell us more--whenever you can spare the time.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2011 5:28:51

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