RE: Why they invented Golpe plates!

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kikkoman

Posts: 108
Joined: Nov. 19 2009

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to estebanana)

what about the facial expressions of most cantaores?

they're pretty out there especially with their arm movements

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2011 22:34:56

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

.....I am in favor of using open strings as part of the basic structure of a composition, it comes through the filter of knowing that for many hundreds of years of musicians were discouraged to use open strings because of the sound differences between stopped strings and open strings. Ginastera and many other modern composers dropped this prejudice against using unstopped strings....

I can accept that point of view to a degree but we quickly start getting on to a different debate which is " where is the fine line between art and pretention?"
Flamenco uses open strings in its chord patterns all the time, thats a part of its characteristic sound...and yet it is still highly musical. Barrios uses open strings for changing finger positions in every composition. These uses of open strings are a beautiful part of the guitars character and its also a way to make certain difficult pieces possible to play.

My criticism is that repeatedly strumming 5 or 6 open strings in a composition while shaking your head earnestly is not beautiful or harmonically clever. Its pure prentention. Its been a trend in classical music to equate contemporary with abstract and dischordant. Its a big reason why I find much of modern flamenco composition to be more worthwile and valid than certain modern composers for the classical guitar.

We are indeed a funny species of creature that has spent hundreds of years experimenting and creating well tempered, polyphonic instruments to sound harmonically perfect in any key, only to spend the last 50 years trying to make them sound as atonal as possible again

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2011 15:28:32

vuduchyld

Posts: 170
Joined: Feb. 20 2011

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

What is good or correct taste. I like Willie Nelson. He´s got style.

Great songwriter, great lyricist, and dude can absolutely play that thing! He's not just strumming open chords with an alternating bass note. I love his soloing...really creative and not always the easiest to play. Great...uh...aire, I guess you could say.

Check out some of his live stuff if you don't believe me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2011 18:42:28

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

can accept that point of view to a degree but we quickly start getting on to a different debate which is " where is the fine line between art and pretention?"
Flamenco uses open strings in its chord patterns all the time, thats a part of its characteristic sound...and yet it is still highly musical. Barrios uses open strings for changing finger positions in every composition. These uses of open strings are a beautiful part of the guitars character and its also a way to make certain difficult pieces possible to play.

My criticism is that repeatedly strumming 5 or 6 open strings in a composition while shaking your head earnestly is not beautiful or harmonically clever. Its pure prentention. Its been a trend in classical music to equate contemporary with
abstract and dischordant. Its a big reason why I find much of modern flamenco composition to be more worthwile and valid than certain modern composers for the classical guitar.

We are basically agreeing on the same thing. My point was that gearing up emotionally to play some open strings and making those faces about it is really silly. I'm all in favor of open strings as part of the guitars character and idiomatic structure.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2011 19:17:48

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to vuduchyld)

quote:

I love his soloing...really creative and not always the easiest to play. Great...uh...aire, I guess you could say

The only thing I like about Willie is his guitar soloing, I think he's an amazingly overrated person in many respects, but his guitar playing is soulful. He's also quite a stinker when it comes to honesty and money in playing "benefit" concerts. But that is another story. People act like this guy is an angel and he's really a business man who sells the "Willie brand".

Sorry all you Europeans who admire him, he's ok, but ....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2011 19:25:12

vuduchyld

Posts: 170
Joined: Feb. 20 2011

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

The only thing I like about Willie is his guitar soloing, I think he's an amazingly overrated person in many respects, but his guitar playing is soulful. He's also quite a stinker when it comes to honesty and money in playing "benefit" concerts. But that is another story. People act like this guy is an angel and he's really a business man who sells the "Willie brand".

Sorry all you Europeans who admire him, he's ok, but ....

Wow...news to me. I've never heard ANYTHING about him being dishonest when it comes to benefit concerts. I have a family friend (actually, recently departed) who worked reasonably closely with Willie on the NORML board. He absolutely adored Willie as a person. That's not to say that he doesn't charge for performing his profession...maybe he does, but I wouldn't begrudge him that.

My understanding, again, through this recently departed close connection, is that Willie does much more for organizations than simply play a guitar. He actually serves on boards for several organizations, including, I believe, a stint as President of the Farm Aid board. I know he worked really hard for NORML...but of course the mission is truly personal with that.

He does have a brand. Personally, I think it's GREAT that he chooses the organizations he works with based on what is meaningful to that brand. I'm guessing that these are also meaningful to him personally. I know he's worked with bio-diesel organizations and animal welfare organizations in addition to his work with Farm Aid and NORML.

There are also some benefits he's done that seem outside of his normal sphere...like earthquake relief in Japan or Asian tsunami relief. This guy has a worldwide name...and if that name brings in dollars for these organizations, again, I don't see how it's problematic if he is reimbursed. But maybe that's just me.

I admire the work he's done....though I'm from Oklahoma, not Europe, so I'm pretty geographically close to Willie in Texas. If you have more information on Willie's transgressions, I'm really curious to know more. I'm sure there aren't too many famous folk who haven't ruffled a few feathers or failed to give people what they considered to be their rightful due...but I've never heard or read anything at all about Willie being anything less than incredibly generous with his chosen causes. Of course, I'm familiar with his IRS issues. I don't suppose he was blameless, but I'd also suspect the accountants weren't, either. And I think he's been free and clear on that for about 20 years.

So...do tell!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2011 22:03:41

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

The only thing I like about Willie is his guitar soloing, I think he's an amazingly overrated person in many respects, but his guitar playing is soulful. He's also quite a stinker when it comes to honesty and money in playing "benefit" concerts. But that is another story. People act like this guy is an angel and he's really a business man who sells the "Willie brand".

Sorry all you Europeans who admire him, he's ok, but ....

I'm a fifth generation Texan from a large South Texas extended family. We Texans tend to kind of like outlaws. Willie is one, or at least was one when he was younger.

Another thing that endears him to me is his accent. There are way too many fake accents to suit me in pop and country these days. Not that I listen to much pop or country on purpose. But listening to National Public Radio in the car, you hear them play some group whining and singing through their noses in some non-existent accent, then in the interview they talk like ordinary 21st century homogenized Americans--or even Englishmen!

There are several authentic Texas accents. Willie talks and sings exactly like where he's from, just a little east of Waco, and authentically for a country boy of his generation. He nails it, and it moves me.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 12 2011 22:46:41

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to vuduchyld)

quote:

but I've never heard or read anything at all about Willie being anything less than incredibly generous with his chosen causes. Of course, I'm familiar with his IRS issues. I don't suppose he was blameless, but I'd also suspect the accountants weren't, either. And I think he's been free and clear on that for about 20 years.

It was news back then, and don't sit well with hard working class tax payers when rich people get away with doing "benefits" for themselves!!!

What I remember was that he put on a concert to raise money to pay his taxes that he had neglected to pay his whole career. Gee, wish I could do that!!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2011 5:25:47

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to kikkoman)

I know very little about Willie. To me he sings, talks and plays and he does it all pretty well. He´s no heroe to me but he´s got style and his guitar as well.. Yeah, and I like his soloing. Besides, I have this country soft spot....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2011 7:30:06

vuduchyld

Posts: 170
Joined: Feb. 20 2011

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

It was news back then, and don't sit well with hard working class tax payers when rich people get away with doing "benefits" for themselves!!! What I remember was that he put on a concert to raise money to pay his taxes that he had neglected to pay his whole career. Gee, wish I could do that!!!

Seriously? Is that what Estebanana was talking about?

I'd suspect that most working class taxpayers identify with Willie on that situation. He blamed his accountants (sued them for deceiving him--and they settled), made the tax bill right, and moved on. Seems to me that most regular ol' folks could more easily imagine being snookered by one o'them there accountants than by the one'n'only Willie Nelson!

The amount of money he raised for his tax bill PALES in comparison to the amount he has raised for Farm Aid, NORML, animal cruelty projects of a variety of shapes and sizes, and disaster relief literally all over the world. If he is acting dishonestly in those pursuits, I'd be curious to know more about it. As for his own tax bills, the release was called "The IRS Tapes: Who'll Buy My Memories?" Hardly dishonest by any stretch of any imagination.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2011 14:54:26

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to vuduchyld)

quote:

Hardly dishonest by any stretch of any imagination.

The dishonest part was that you know, he DID"T PAY until he got caught. Then it was like, "oh, no problems I will just play a concert and make MY FANS pay". Not sure what is not so clear about why folks that are not superstars AND pay their taxes on time would be kind of pissed.

If you are a big willie fan and hence a contributor to paying his tax debt, then you need not be one of the angry ones I guess.

And news flash, doing benefits are NON PROFIT projects....that means any money paid out is not taxable, and also an artists waived "fee" is a tax deduction. Do the math on that....plus add in the fact that you and I don't know exact how much was paid out and wonder where any extra money might have gone that is also not taxable.

I have seen people put on cancer benefits that make REALLY good money out of it, but only because I was given some numbers. But all the save the whales and all that is for making good clean money and making people feel good too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2011 17:08:01

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to kikkoman)

Well I can understand liking your "kin" from your state and especially because they speak in a regional way. What's not to like about that? We enjoy flamenco for same reasons.

I'm not going to implicate myself in any talking trash about Willie; I simply said I think a lot of people only see one side of what he does. I'll also say he does stimulate the economy, he keeps a lot lawyers employed.

If I were to pick a Texas pop music star to be interested in it would be Billy Gibbons. But I know he's a Houston boy so that makes him a city slicker. I'd rather hear some ZZ then go to the Menil Collection and take in a Miro' or mosey over to the Ima Hogg wing of the Houston Museum of Fine Arts and look at some of them fancy pants paintins' than listen to Willie catterwalling like an armadillo on fire.

But that's just me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2011 21:25:59

vuduchyld

Posts: 170
Joined: Feb. 20 2011

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The dishonest part was that you know, he DID"T PAY until he got caught. Then it was like, "oh, no problems I will just play a concert and make MY FANS pay". Not sure what is not so clear about why folks that are not superstars AND pay their taxes on time would be kind of pissed. If you are a big willie fan and hence a contributor to paying his tax debt, then you need not be one of the angry ones I guess.

And news flash, doing benefits are NON PROFIT projects....that means any money paid out is not taxable, and also an artists waived "fee" is a tax deduction. Do the math on that....plus add in the fact that you and I don't know exact how much was paid out and wonder where any extra money might have gone that is also not taxable.

I have seen people put on cancer benefits that make REALLY good money out of it, but only because I was given some numbers. But all the save the whales and all that is for making good clean money and making people feel good too.

Doesn't seem to me like he made anybody pay. Seems like it was quite voluntary. Well...with the exception of the accountants who got him into the mess. He did make them pay.

I guess if you're saying that all celebs who play benefit concerts are somehow in a racket, then Willie must be in a racket. That might be true. I've never been asked to perform at one (at least not for money). I suppose Estenbanana seemed so quick to call him out that I just thought I must have missed a Rolling Stone article or a Spin mag article or something. But if there's nothing more to it than what I see here, I'm happy to move along....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2011 22:27:18

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to kikkoman)

quote:

But if there's nothing more to it than what I see here, I'm happy to move along....

These are not the droids you're looking for.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2011 22:49:16

vuduchyld

Posts: 170
Joined: Feb. 20 2011

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

These are not the droids you're looking for.

LOL!!! OK....I believe you!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2011 23:42:50

aloysius

Posts: 233
Joined: Apr. 7 2005
From: Adelaide, Australia

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to Pimientito)

In defense of Tom, he's actually a very good player with certain types of pieces, especially Italian 18th century guitar pieces, and classical era music in general. His style of strumming is more influenced by Stepan Rak and his imitation of Russian folk instruments than by flamenco (he doesn't claim to be playing or imitating flamenco). Agreed I'm not a fan of the intentionally crowd-pleasing stuff, I think that comes from all the busking he does, so he ends up doing whatever draws the crowds.

That guitar has uneven frets because it is in just intonation and not equal temperament (i.e. it's exactly in tune in only one key) and was made by his dad.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2011 2:46:11

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

If I were to pick a Texas pop music star to be interested in it would be Billy Gibbons. But I know he's a Houston boy so that makes him a city slicker. I'd rather hear some ZZ ....

Yeah. I like ZZ too. I'm not sure how they talk, but they sing pure Houston redneck.

Waco's not South Texas, so Willie's not kin, but at least his accent's not fake.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2011 3:11:20

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

Yeah. I like ZZ too. I'm not sure how they talk, but they sing pure Houston redneck.

What is your stance on Ima Hogg? My Texas family were Russian/German Jews who came to America through the Port of Galveston;

Ima Hogg is just kosher with me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2011 16:50:33

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to estebanana)

I'm the son of an Air Force officer. I went to the 5th and 6th grades in Oklahoma City, the 7th and 8th grades in Anchorage, Alaska, and high school in Maryland just outside Washington, DC where we lived. In high school I played soccer. We didn't have an American football team.

When I got to Texas to go to the University I had to bone up on Texas high school and college football and a lot of other subjects, and I had to learn to dance the dirty bop to the tune of Elvis, Buddy Holly and the Big Bopper.

Though I spent time on the ranch in South Texas every summer, it was a pretty parochial experience.

My impression of Miss Hogg was through the largely liberal views of University faculty and students. She was greatly admired as a benefactor of the arts and as an advocate of racial justice. I never heard her name spoken by my South Texas relatives.

There's a bronze statue of her father, "Big Jim" Hogg , the former governor, on the University campus. It portrays him in full rotund magnificence.

The main cultural venue on campus in that far off age was Hogg Auditorium. Miss Hogg would have been 51 years old when it was built in 1933, and well embarked on her career of philanthropy. There I heard Julian Bream for the first time. He still had a full head of hair.

Somewhere around 1976, well after my University career, the Austin Guitar Society (not the present Austin Classical Guitar Society) presented a concert by Mario Escudero. We put it on at Hogg Auditorium. The place sold out.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2011 5:32:47

dararith

Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 4 2010
From: Oakland, CA

RE: Why they invented Golpe plates! (in reply to aloysius)

Flamenco or not, Tom's got some skills, but I don't like his dynamics. I just want to say to him, "Treat EVERY note with respect, man...", seems like he's going to destroy his guit-- er...wait, part of his guitar is already destroyed.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2011 23:10:09