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mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

low buzz vs high buzz? 
Something bothers me for some time. My D strings buzz with a weird high pitch. It's not easy to explain especially with my bad english but it's not the same buzz as the low E and A.
E and A are more low buzz (normal one i'd say), and it comes from the fretboard. But for the D, I feel that the buzz comes from the saddle.
So it's that possible?

Also my darn D has broken at the saddle yesterday

And finally i have also the impression that the D string not oscillate like the others, especially when I capoed. The oscillation is way shorty than the others. The result is that it's kind of dead sounding D. Poor tone (w/ capo on 2 or 3).

Is that a normal behavior? I would not care much about that but sometimes depending on how i fret the D and how I play it, this high buzz start to piss me off

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2011 10:41:06
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: low buzz vs high buzz? (in reply to mezzo) 
could this be a harmonic type buzz ? Like the string is slightly hitting somewhere along its length but not enough to stop it or make a buzz, just to make a bit of a harmonic at that point,
Maybe time to clean the neck and guitar up , new strings and start again from that point,

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2011 10:50:32
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: low buzz vs high buzz? (in reply to El Kiko) 
quote:

Maybe time to clean the neck and guitar up , new strings and start again from that point,

No i don't think so, even with new strings on, same result. But it's not always at the same intensity, there are variations. First I thought my capo was too old and didn't made a good job anymore but I change my mind.

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2011 11:00:45
 
Gimar Yestra

 

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
From: The Netherlands

RE: low buzz vs high buzz? (in reply to mezzo) 
do you hear a buzzing sound when you tap on the top or back in different positions??
This can help you tell if the buzz comes froma loose4 brace or gluelining

you can also check if the saddle has a flat spot onit, if the string vibrates on a flat spot it can cause buzzes aswell.

Did you check the tuning machines, are al the screws properly tightened?

I know from experience that some buzzes can be realy hard to find, and are sometimes caused by loose braces or gluejoints that are starting to come loose.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2011 17:30:03
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: low buzz vs high buzz? (in reply to Gimar Yestra) 
Gimar I'm gonna check what you mentioned. Thanks.

I don't understand : "if the string vibrates on a flat spot it can cause buzzes aswell. " what is a flat spot?

Once I brought the guitar to a luthier to lower the whole action (left and right hand). He has also filed the saddle' top coz he said that the strings did not touch the whole surface, so he softened the angle by rounding.

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2011 18:04:01
 
Gimar Yestra

 

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
From: The Netherlands

RE: low buzz vs high buzz? (in reply to mezzo) 
a saddle is rounded off where the string touches, so the actual contact point with the string is minimal, if the contact area becomes larger the string can vibrato against the contact area, wich can cause buzzes.

not sure if this makes sence, its difficult for me to explain.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2011 19:46:52
 
rodrigovalt

Posts: 296
Joined: May 1 2011
 

RE: low buzz vs high buzz? (in reply to mezzo) 
Hi mezzo, try checking not only the saddle but also it can be that the string when played is vibrating against some part of the headstock. Or also it could be that a loose end of one of the strings is vibrating against another string or also the wood of the headstock.

Hope you get to resolve that

Rodrigo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2011 2:16:25
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: low buzz vs high buzz? (in reply to mezzo) 
make sure the string is lying over the saddle on a relatively sharp edge in the front part of the saddle. If, the strings can touch a part of the saddle in front of that edge, it´ll sound dead. The same goes for the (other way round) when playing open stings.

Its difficult to explain....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2011 8:02:18
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: low buzz vs high buzz? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
Thanks guys.
I checked the part you mentionned but found nothing special.

quote:

Its difficult to explain....

Indeed Anders I'm not sure I understood correctly.

The luthier told me that there was a gap between the strings and the saddle. When I looked, I didn't notice anything coz it was super small. Unnoticiable for an non expert eyes. But he told me that this was not a good thing for the sound blabla. And I trusted him coz he's the pro. So he rounded the part of the saddle that faces the tie block. That way the strings could touch the whole surface.

So if I undestood what you and Gimar said, that's not a good thing?
For the buzz and for the tone?

Also a weird thing I came across today. My D buzz also in open string. But only if I strum the string in the middle area soundhole/bridge. If I push the string as loud as I can with my pulgar close the sound hole or on the sound hole then the darn D not buzz anymore (open string position)



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_____________________________

"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2011 17:11:53
 
Shawn Brock

 

Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY

RE: low buzz vs high buzz? (in reply to mezzo) 
Hi Mezzo,

I'm wondering if the saddle is just to low, or if a brace or even the harmonic bar is coming unglued. I had this problem once and it was caused by the saddle being to low. Some times adding a little pressure to the string behind the saddle can tell you if the saddle is the problem. lay the guitar flat on your lap and use a finger on your left hand to press down on the D string behind the saddle. Press down hard. Then pluck the open D hard with a finger on your right hand. If the buzz goes away when you do this, I would say the saddle is to low, or is loose in its slot.

I didn't understand part of your last post. Did you mean that when you press on the top of the guitar near the sound hole and pluck the open D that the buzz goes away? If so then that would mean that you have a brace which is coming loose.

I hope this problem goes away, because I know how frustrating a buzz can be...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2011 17:40:54
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: low buzz vs high buzz? (in reply to Shawn Brock) 
Hey Shawn I'm glad you decided to stay

Thanks for your advice I'll check this out. However I'm not sure it's just a lower saddle issue. It could be part of it but I already put a little piece of wood under the saddle to raise the action but the "weird buzzin" and tonal/oscillation issue not really disappear (while capo on 2).

I decided to remove the wood under the saddle and the little paper i put under the nut coz the guitar reacts badly. I had problems for tunnig her and don't know what happened but damn I couldn't stay in compas while playing. (I'm not joking it's true ). A mystic experience for sure.
Once I removed the wood and paper and changed the crappy trebles on it. Wow it was night and day. My compas feeling was "fine" again. It was as if the guitare felt ill and send me his pain. And I was always loosing compas!

quote:

I didn't understand part of your last post. Did you mean that when you press on the top of the guitar near the sound hole and pluck the open D that the buzz goes away?

No I didn't press the top of the guitar. I just plucked the open D.

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2011 21:50:10
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: low buzz vs high buzz? (in reply to mezzo) 
I have noticed this too. It normally occurs when I adjust the tuning by bending the string behind the capo. Something happens where a harmonic occurs, not sure what causes this, always assumed it was the fact this string is so thin and weak so the winding gets compromised somehow. It also occurs when the winding separates and exposes the threads. Often the D string will break soon after you hear that buzz. Also have noticed humidity changes to be a factor, but this has happened to several different guitars I have owned, it is a property of the actual string I am sure. Remains a mystery to me, but you are not crazy. One thing is to check the bone for grooves forming under the D.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2011 5:36:33
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: low buzz vs high buzz? (in reply to mezzo) 
The saddle on picture looks bad IMO. Its way to rounded and the point where the string leaves the saddle is not clearly defined. Its way to round and should be sharper. If the string touches something when it vibrates, it sounds dead. And it can be just a very small piece of the saddle (or the nut)
Again difficult to explain so I made a lousy drawing in paint.
The saddle to the left is the good one. The one to the right the bad one



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2011 7:12:39
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: low buzz vs high buzz? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

One thing is to check the bone for grooves forming under the D.

I'll check this too. But the bass strings made grooves no?

Anders thanks for the pic. For what i notice, mine is kind of mix of that 2.
The part that face the soundhole looks like your left design. This part seems not rounded, it's abrupt.
The part that face the tie block looks like your right design.

I'm thinking to order a new bone saddle and try to adjust it myself
Hopefully these bone saddle not cost alot of $.
what would be an adequate one to order : 83x10x2,5 mn? or 83x10x3 mn? or ...X2,2 mn?

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2011 10:20:05
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: low buzz vs high buzz? (in reply to mezzo) 
The sadlle bone you posted... Is it the one we are talking about?
Its way to flat on the top

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2011 17:09:33
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: low buzz vs high buzz? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

Is it the one we are talking about?

yep
Actually I think he has filed only where the strings are. So as I focus at the beginning point (bass side) the lookalike is more like your left drawing. Now when I look at treble side it's true that's the saddle is almost flat...

well i hope it's not too tricky to make a new one by myself.

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2011 19:30:32
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: low buzz vs high buzz? (in reply to mezzo) 
The saddle you have is probably really close. See if you can file it a tiny bit a accomplish a better rounded top.

Like in Anders' drawing- take the saddle out and hold it vertically. Sight down from the side and imagine it still has corners where it is round. Then without touching the top of the saddle think about an imaginary slice off the rounded sides that does not remove anything from the top of the saddle or vertical the sides of the saddle.

After you visualize that find a nail file lay it on a table, and hold the saddle at a 45 degree angle over it and run the saddle perpendicular over the file. You should be able to make two light passes on each side over the nail file and trim down the bulk of the rounded over top.

You're closer than you think. Also your D string could have a high fret under the d string or a worn fret that you can't perceive without a straight edge.

Also take your thumb nail and press each fret on the edges and in the middle. It's possible to have a fret that is loose in one spot and lifting up. If you see of feel any give in the fret then let us know. You can glue it back down with super glue, maybe.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2011 20:56:15
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: low buzz vs high buzz? (in reply to estebanana) 
thanks for the tips Stephen.
I'll check the frets also.

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2011 22:42:15
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