Picado planning

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Picado planning

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[Poll]

Picado planning

Yes: I find the best way early on and practice it that way always

60% (12)

No: I practice many ways and let nature take its course

25% (5)

I don't think about it

15% (3)

I always start every picado on the same finger, no matter what

0% (0)

Total Votes : 20

(last vote on : Dec. 19 2013 12:00:21)

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turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

Picado planning

I was working on some PdL picados lately, and stumbled on the fact that in this particular case, it was easier to start on 'm' than 'i'. I hadn't thought of making a decision up to this point. I was just going with whatever was intuitive.

And it made me wonder: when approaching picados, assuming your technique is a repetitive alternating of 2 or 3 fingers that could be started on any finger, do you guys experiment with which finger yields the better result, and then commit to that starting finger, or do you let chance determine, based on your rock solid picado skills, and based on what may come before it (which may be something different from time to time)?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 7:29:02

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: Picado planning (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

do you guys experiment with which finger yields the better result, and then commit to that starting finger, or do you let chance determine, based on your rock solid picado skills,

I'm not entirely clear what question you're asking. You began by referencing a "particular case" in which it was beneficial to start with 'm' rather than 'i'. I think that's part of it. Ideally, one would be so versatile in one's technique that it wouldn't matter. (I take it this is one of the points of the picado exercises in the Nunez DVD). But in the context of a particular falseta, and depending on what your fingers have just done, it might make more sense to use 'm' than 'i'.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 8:51:44

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Picado planning (in reply to machopicasso)

I practice starting with m or i.

But for performing I always start particular phrases the same way.

Technically I could start with either finger, which one I use is often to do with what happens just before, e.g. how an arpeggio ends.
But it's also to do with expression because I find I have a little more power in the m finger. By experimenting with accenting/phrasing I find the way that sounds best to me musically and stick with that.

( I found exercises practicing string crossing with either finger leading very helpful, now leading with either finger feels comfortable )

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 10:26:08

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Picado planning (in reply to orsonw)

ofcourse one should always plan their picado, some work best starting with m some with i...dont wanna discover that in the last second...theres this nino de pura fandangos mad picado...it goes for alot of bars...its up and down the strings etc...you are supposed to start it with M...otherwise everything feels really weird when trying to cross strings..and hard work...if you start with M everything gels and feels natural...

as practice sometimes u can practice with diff combination's but to perform i think u should pick what feels most natural and have all you fingers preplanned...for everything...not just picado

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 13:46:51

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: Picado planning (in reply to machopicasso)

The picado in question (for me) was Paco's La Plazuela:

(at 1:35).

I played it once, starting on m, by accident, not realizing I was starting on i up to that point. Perhaps because I was playing the material immediately before it, and then just battening down the hatches and entering into the picado madness. Any way, I'm a big believe in doing things both ways, but my m finger is quite a bit longer than my i, so the feel can be quite different depending on how many strings are involved and the difficulty of the picado.
But that's just me..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 14:02:55

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Picado planning (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

I'm a big believe in doing things both ways,

do you mean in practice ?...as an exercise to balance out you hand more.... fine

but in a gig i would assume it makes most sense to do it with what works best..i wouldn't take a chance when i know for sure what finger each of my scales works best with and i practiced it that way a million times...

others might disagree but the way i see it when it comes to the M and I finger ..for each picado i think there's only one right way of doing it, sometimes its important that you start with a certain finger so that the last note lands on the certain finger that you need for the next part.....if you not doing it the way the particular picado calls for...if you start with M when you should be starting with I it will trip you up, it wont feel as natural as it should, you would have to work harder, extra unnecessary movement and effort it will affect how even your notes will be, speed, sound etc...IMO...there's logic and reasoning behind each finger placement

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 14:08:17

stratos13

Posts: 222
Joined: Apr. 11 2005
From: Αθήνα

RE: Picado planning (in reply to turnermoran)

Paco has stated that he preplans each scale he plays
(Light and Shade Documentary - "if i practice a scale i can make it as fast as i want")

End of conversation

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 15:20:37

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Picado planning (in reply to stratos13)

quote:

"if i practice a scale i can make it as fast as i want")

which Paco said that ?....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 15:24:53

vuduchyld

Posts: 170
Joined: Feb. 20 2011

RE: Picado planning (in reply to turnermoran)

Did you play it that fast?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 16:39:03

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: Picado planning (in reply to vuduchyld)

Am I playing it as fast as PdL?
Uh..no. I'm in the ball park (albeit a very large one), but am missing the authority and crispness.

And this particular picado was discussed on another thread this past summer, in which Ricardo said that he knows many pro players who don't touch it. So I won't be heartbroken if I never get it as fast and killing' as PdL

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 18:02:42

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: Picado planning (in reply to Florian)

Flo - you hit it on the head.

I agree that when you start to have string crossing, picados take on another level of difficulty. Especially if you have, say, the i finger hitting the first string and the m finger hitting the second string.

And for a concert I would never intentionally choose to play a passage the more difficult way.

But I have encountered numerous teachers and seen in books that this particular problem is addressed with various exercises meant to render this problem as inconsequential. And a few months ago, there was an Acoustic Guitar magazine that had a PdL highlight. In it, the author transcribed a passage from a Solea in which Paco played an arpeggio type picado with all i and m, crossing strings like mad in the most awkward of ways. The author states that Paco spent so much time practicing his picado that it was all the same to him.

Granted, there's only one PdL, but that's the nature of my question here:
Do people practice picadoa of all sorts that the starting finger becomes irrelevant, or, do guitarists here end up with 100 picados in their mind, each one with a specific starting finger.

As a musician - a human one with limits - I'm accepting that the latter may be necessary for me, but i know I make better music when I'm not thinking about every finger on every sixteenth note of the whole piece

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 18:14:46

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Picado planning (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

As a musician - a human one with limits - I'm accepting that the latter may be necessary for me, but i know I make better music when I'm not thinking about every finger on every sixteenth note of the whole piece

You shouldnt even be touching
the Paco stuff at all if you're still in question about which finger to start on.

Get your rudiments solid first. This is an issue with so many players.

Paco's material is not the place to start your journey.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 18:22:56

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Picado planning (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

Get your rudiments solid first

Yes, I wish I had!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 19:01:28

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Picado planning (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

Especially if you have, say, the i finger hitting the first string and the m finger hitting the second string.

yeah that's the best scenario to start with M on the 1st string

quote:

i know I make better music when I'm not thinking about every finger on every sixteenth note of the whole piece

u shouldn't have too man...that's exactly why u do all this pre planning and preparation in practices...when u are there all u need to think about is making it sound good...the fingering will be in your memory for repetition of the same way

infact even if you can do picado just as well with both i think u can create confusion and yet another decision for yourself to make in the last minute...(any unplanned decision u need to make about fingering while playing, no matter how little can cause hesitation and mistakes) and by not planing at home u are setting yourself up for having to make this decision on the spot...if u can do with only one way and have practiced it with only one(hopefully the right one for you)...there's no need to make any decisions...no questions......

quote:

Do people practice picadoa of all sorts that the starting finger becomes irrelevant, or, do guitarists here end up with 100 picados in their mind, each one with a specific starting finger

i dont know if the starting finger is ever irrelevant, as i said much depends on it...where you land after, what u need to do etc. but speaking for myself...

yes i practice picado with all different finger combination...but that is just for practice, i preplan everything according to what i need to do and what feels most natural and makes most sense to me

but this is just me

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 19:46:57

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Picado planning (in reply to Florian)

quote:

quote:

Especially if you have, say, the i finger hitting the first string and the m finger hitting the second string.

yeah that's the best scenario to start with M on the 1st string

The trouble is that some runs are no-win situations when you just use two fingers: if you start with the finger that gives you the easiest time at the first string-crossing, you may find it’s back-to-front when you come to the next one.

In these cases I use my third finger to keep the order of the other two in sync. Other people don’t, and just keep alternating i-m. It’s a personal decision.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 20:19:56

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Picado planning (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

The trouble is the some runs are no-win situations when you just use two fingers: if you start with the finger that gives you the easiest time at the first string-crossing, you may find it’s back-to-front when you come to the next one.

fair enough...i haven't yet come across something like that yet...but i am sure they out there, if you have an example please post.....

unless written down by someone better i guess its up to us to judge each crossing and try all combination till we find the most natural one for us that gets the best results...but when u do find it you will still practice it to death...to internalize it...one is the most natural way...and the others arent

anyway good topic , we don't often talk about this aspect of picado and i think turnermoran you should experiment with all this as much as possible, not take anyones word for it until it speaks to you and makes sense to you, and u know why u are doing it a certain way and not another

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 20:24:54

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: Picado planning (in reply to ToddK)

TK:
While that may be good advise, the same question applies to the most basic of picados.

I have spent years working on my picado, so it's not that I don't know which finger to start on. If I play a picado as part of something larger that is all pre-planned, I'll usually find the best fingering, and go with that. But if I'm improvising, the alternate fingering may come into play. But I don't practice every single thing with this level of detail. Maybe I should. But it's awfully time consuming.

So maybe the essence of my question is whether or not people are playing flamenco with an improvisational component, or more like classical music where every move is planned out. My main curiosity is for the improvisational, because I think you can improvise - even if it's just inserting different falsettas - and commit to one way of fingering, or you can leave it open. ....Or not. That's really my question.

So tk: as a teacher and/or player, what do you tell your students for the most basic of picados?
"always start this picado on m, because it lays better?" "practice both ways but plan on playing it only one way?"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 21:33:45

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Picado planning (in reply to Florian)

quote:

if you have an example please post

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-0-1-3-1-0-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------2-1-2-4-2-1---1------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------3---3-2-0-2-3-2-0---0----------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------3---3-2-0-2-3-2--0----------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------4-3-1-0--------------------------

Bit of a Paco Serrano fandango.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 22:40:41

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Picado planning (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

quote:

if you have an example please post

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-0-1-3-1-0-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------2-1-2-4-2-1---1------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------3---3-2-0-2-3-2-0---0----------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------3---3-2-0-2-3-2--0----------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------4-3-1-0--------------------------

Bit of a Paco Serrano fandango.

Easy! Just start with the middle finger and after you first get to the C on the 5th string just play the next D on the same string 5th fret. Or, if you want to completely avoid crossings, switch to first and second fingers after you first get to the open 4th string and always play the D on the 5th fret of the 5th string. But now your little finger has some work...

Am I the only person that feels more comfortable switching to the lower string with the middle finger?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 1 2011 23:05:18

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: Picado planning (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

Paul - I have no idea what the tempo is, but at the tempo I just practiced this, it seems that the fingering issues are the same regardless of starting finger. Am I missing something? Or did I not put it under the magnifying glass? Is the tempo faster?

Here's what I did:
(first couple are starting w/ i, then w/ m. I try to show the switch by extending the starting finger prior to playing)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/96808594@N00/6439119795/in/photostream

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2011 0:18:00

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: Picado planning (in reply to turnermoran)

Paco starts usually with m.

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Spyros

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2011 0:35:48

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Picado planning (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

Am I the only person that feels more comfortable switching to the lower string with the middle finger?

You're not the only one. That has always felt comfortable for me too.

Its totally logical really, cause M is the longer finger.

TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2011 0:58:50

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Picado planning (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

Here's what I did:
(first couple are starting w/ i, then w/ m. I try to show the switch by extending the starting finger prior to playing)

I think you should be more concerned with sound
and with shortening your backswing. It needs to be much tighter if you want the right sound and plan to reach higher speeds.

Getting rid of tension in the right hand is so important. Lots of people have heard this advice, or have repeated it, etc.. but very few people in my opinion are actually applying it.
Its impossible to explain. Its a feeling. When you find it, you'll know.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2011 1:24:28

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Picado planning (in reply to turnermoran)

quote:

Easy! Just start with the middle finger and after you first get to the C on the 5th string just play the next D on the same string 5th fret. Or, if you want to completely avoid crossings, switch to first and second fingers after you first get to the open 4th string and always play the D on the 5th fret of the 5th string. But now your little finger has some work...

Am I the only person that feels more comfortable switching to the lower string with the middle finger?

yes

youre doing something wrong with your picado

kidding, i dont know...

whenever possible i always...avoid string crossings when its easy enough to substitute the same note ...

eg

---------0-1-3-4-3-1-0-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-0-1-3-------------------3-1-0-1-3-1-0------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------2-1-2-4-2-1------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------3-2-0-2-3-2-0------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------3-2-0-2-3-2-0--------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------4-3-1-0

perfect scenario where i would start with M

paco serranos alegrias

---------4--------------4-------------4-5-7-5-4-----------------------------------------------------
-----------7-5-4-5-7---7-5-4-5-7--------------7-5-7---------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2011 4:15:30

stratos13

Posts: 222
Joined: Apr. 11 2005
From: Αθήνα

RE: Picado planning (in reply to turnermoran)

What about sliding fingers?

It can be faster, but in the long run it seems like a mistake.;

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2011 5:30:43

odinz

Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway

RE: Picado planning (in reply to ToddK)

Toddk:

quote:

Getting rid of tension in the right hand is so important. Lots of people have heard this advice, or have repeated it, etc.. but very few people in my opinion are actually applying it.
Its impossible to explain. Its a feeling. When you find it, you'll know.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2011 6:17:47

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Picado planning (in reply to turnermoran)

For tone i think Chicuelo has a realy great picado tone. check out his "Encuentro" DVD

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2011 6:35:25

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: Picado planning (in reply to Florian)

quote:

anyway good topic , we don't often talk about this aspect of picado and i think turnermoran you should experiment with all this as much as possible, not take anyones word for it until it speaks to you and makes sense to you, and u know why u are doing it a certain way and not another

Thanks for the positive words Florian. Good advise.

I think the thing that is most unsettling for me personally is how similar flamenco and classical can be in approach when it's all about executing a technically perfect passage. I guess I'm in denial that many of the guitarists I love practice their art like classical music.
Don't get me wrong: I enjoy classical. But I'm way more into the magic of improvisation and jazz..not knowing what comes next.

When I listen to Live in America (PdL) or One Summer Night (PdL), or YouTube vids from concerts of so many great flamencos, I hear SO many moments where it seems like they're following their ears and inspiration and trusting their technique will serve them. Instead of saying "insert falsetta #43 here. insert compas groove #16 now. Prepare for picado #87. Ready. Go.."

And I get it; you get to the freedom by practicing the discipline stuff. But somewhere in there is a leap of faith. And personally, I don't think you learn that by ignoring it until you're ready. I think you flirt with it all along. You try and fail. And mix it up; practice your scales and patterns. Then practice improvising. Introduce it little by little.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2011 7:50:08

turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010

RE: Picado planning (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

I think you should be more concerned with sound
and with shortening your backswing. It needs to be much tighter if you want the right sound and plan to reach higher speeds.

ToddK: thanks much for the constructive criticism! By far my favorite thing about the foro; that we can exchange such things and grow.

At the risk of hijacking the thread, do you think my back swing can be tightened up when I'm playing at the faster tempo in those videos? It's intentionally big at the half time tempo. But I don't know if there that much more space to compress at the higher tempos. Anyone else want to comment?

Tone? That's definitely a valid critique. Though in all fairness, you're listening to audio from an iPhone 3gs, recorded 90º off angle. Of a passage I'm literally sight reading off the computer screen TAB as I play it (which is why my head is turned)

Anyway, I spent some time this summer with a teacher of mine who maintains that 100% tension free playing is impossible. And that brief moments of tension are to be expected. Food for thought.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2011 8:14:16