Very strong glue fumes in new factory guitar

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Very strong glue fumes in new factory guitar – toxic?

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Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

Very strong glue fumes in new factor...

I just received a shipment of some factory guitars, and they have a very strong smell of glue. I mean REALLY VERY VERY strong – not just some residual odor.

What I would like to know from luthiers is –

1) Is this stuff actually toxic? Or just strong smelling?

2) Is there some way to reduce or eliminate the odor?

If it's not actually toxic, I can possibly mask the odor in the same way I have in the past with used guitars that have some odor – musty etc. Auto supply stores sell these little felt car deodorizers that you hang in the car. One of the most popular of these is a little pine tree. So I take a small piece of that and hang it inside the sound hole, and Presto! it smells like fresh pine.

So I could do that, as long as the fumes are not actually toxic, in which case there's no use covering it up.

Appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2011 19:36:21

Gimar Yestra

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
From: The Netherlands

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

are you sure its the glue your smelling and not the laquer??

When I my guitars back from the painter they often smell like laquer for a while, obviously inhaling glue or laquer fumes is not very healthy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2011 19:45:27

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

If it smalles really bad then 99% its bad for the health

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2011 20:48:35

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

I don't think it's glue inside the guitar you're smelling, but on the other hand I'm really not sure what they're doing in factories these days.
I can't think of any glue used on guitars that still smells after it's dried.
My guess would be that it's from the case -- some cases smell really incredibly bad for the first few weeks, and it permeates the guitar too. For example TKL archtop cases, I may stop getting them because they reek.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2011 20:54:27

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

The glue they use to adhere foams in cases often smell bad and off gas for some time. If the guitars stayed in those cases for any time they can absorb the off gassing and also smell bad.

Finishes, especially polyurethane based, can also off gas for a long time. The best thing to do with stinky cases is to set them in the sun for a few hours a day and this helps induce the off gassing until they reach a level that is not so pungent. Guitars that smell bad should be stored out of the sun, but in the open for a few days and then checked to see if the off gassing has abated somewhat.

Plastic based glue and finishes are usually the culprit. Off gassing means molecules in the components that make plastic are leaving the plastic. Plastic is like bread in a way, there is one hard component like grain and a soft component like fat that holds the grain together. In plastic the molecules of the "fat" keep the plastic supple and keep it from cracking. UV rays break down the "fat" and cause the molecules to be dispersed from the plastic. That is why car dashboards crack eventually, the sun has dried out the soft component of the plastic and driven it from the plastic leaving the dashboard brittle.

Some cheap unbalanced plastics can be formulated with too much fatty binder and they off gas excessively right from the beginning until they reach an equilibrium of hard and soft components. Then the off gassing slows and the plastic does not stink so much. The car analogy to this is that "new car smell", when the plastic has not off gassed the extra fat molecules yet. Some guitars with plastic finishes and plastic or foam cases can have that new car smell, or stink as the case by be. Usually time and moderate sunlight can cure the cases and time in open air will cure the guitars.

Find well a ventilated area and leave the cases wide open for a few days. Same with the guitars. Health wise it's probably ok, as long as no plastic is being burned and you are ventilating the stink away. Burning plastic releases yet more chemicals which are super nasty.

Don't despair, apply fresh air.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2011 21:46:00

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Thanks for all this. I had assumed it was glue, but I'm beginning to think that it might be the finish. It's high gloss polyurethane. I might exchange them for guitars with lacquer finish. Can someone tell me if they think that lacquer might give off less fumes than polyurethane? Or is it all the same? Thanks for any help.

I'm going to play only Siguiriyas on these guitars so that if they kill me at least I'll go out the right way.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2011 22:29:44

Gimar Yestra

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
From: The Netherlands

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

polyurethane is a type of laquer, mostly used nowadays.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 7 2011 22:37:20

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Actually no Gimar, Polyurethane and Nitrocellulose lacquer are different animals. You may be calling a finish 'lacquer' as a generic term for finish.

Nitro should dry and not give odd any bad smell, only a slight hint of odor when still new. Polyurethane is plastic compound and comes in different grades and depending on when and where it is made.

Thick fresh polyurethane could also be off gassing because it is not totally solid yet. it may be dry to the touch, but chemically it's not fully cured and is letting off molecules of gas.

Is the finish really thick? If so that could be the problem. It might change in a few weeks. If not then consider your trade for lacquer.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2011 5:03:39

Gimar Yestra

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
From: The Netherlands

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

oh hahaha, I knew they were different, I know nitrocellulose is a by-product from making explosives... atleast the old stuff used to be.

when is something considered a lacquer?? when its not plastic-ish like poly or 2 component finishes??, kinda curious how that works.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2011 12:14:47

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Ever see the movie The Deerhunter? There's a scene where Robert De Niro holds up a bullet and say's "This means this".

I know that's is not an answer, but its the first thing that I thought of.

Lacquer is lacquer, but liquor is quicker.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2011 15:24:48

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Prominent Critic--you raise an interesting point about exchanging the guitars. If indeed it is thick PU (polyurethane, pun intented) causing the stink then I would wonder about the sound quality of these guitars. If you find them not to be satisfactory and can exchange them for nitro finished guitars then that is something to think about. If the stink is from the cases, then fresh air, sun and a finishing spray of Frebreeze might do the trick.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2011 22:13:00

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

The short list of finishes:

Varnishes

Varnishes are drying oils with resins dissolved in them. Varnish comes in two main types long oil and short oil. Long oil varnish means there is more oil than resin and they cure to be flexible and self repairing. They are also soft. Short oil varnish emphasizes less oil and more resin, this makes them hard durable, but brittle. Long oil varnish is used on things like boats.

Shellac

Shellac is naturally occurring finish product produced by an insect called the lac bug. It is soluble in alcohol.

Lacquer

Lacquer- Comes in several types, this is where it gets complex. There are three basic things to remember:

Solvent based lacquers, most traditional. Use Volatile Organic Compounds as solvents.

Water based Lacquers- Modern - Acylic based soluble in water, until dry.

Catalyzed lacquers- Modern- Two part lacquers made to co polymerize when mixed and cured with UV lights.

All lacquers dry fast as the solvent evaporates. Some continue to cure for several days or weeks even after they are dry to the touch.

Polyurethane in it's most common from is a type varnish. It is a urethane plastic to oil mixture in the same sense that a traditional varnish is resin to oil based. It is usually soluble in mineral spirit solvent. The polyurethane takes the place of natural resins in the finish but is basically formulated along the lines of a traditional varnish where a balance of oil to resin is created to make a coating.

There's much, much more to it, but basically there are varnishes, and the various divisions of lacquers. There is tons of reading material on the internet if you want to delve further into the various types and how they are formulated.

I'm just putting this out there as a guide for anyone interested looking up basic categories. It's not the final word.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2011 22:22:26

Steve Wright

Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

35 YEARS AGO, I bought a 12 string guitar and at the same time bought a hard case for it. Not until I got it home did I realise that the smell was coming from the case. It smelt like a farm-yard. I tried many remedies including leaving it in a garage open and putting in car-fresh de-odourents. To this day it smells, but not quite as bad. I would expect if it is a glue smell, that it will wear off over time. I couldn't see a factory getting away with using a "toxic" glue that could harm end users - but I guess there is always a first. some countries are not so strict on regulations and don't really care about their workers longevity. I guess if it's a budget range of guitars, they will need to use budget glues which will give off odours longer and also be a problem if you ever need to separate parts. Mind you, my moto on cheaper end guitars is - don't spend too much on repairs - just put the money towards a decent guitar if you can. (I'm drifting from the point).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2011 22:28:47

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Okay, I had to figure out whether it was the finish or something inside. It definitely is not from the case - case closed!

As reluctant as I was to do it, I had to sniff around – literally. So I sniffed the back, which would preclude getting it from the sound hole, and then I sniffed the top, at the lower bout, where there is a good expanse of wood. It seems that my original thought was correct, that it is coming from inside the guitar, because there was just a little residual smell on the finish, but it reeked from inside the sound hole.

So – since there's nothing in there but wood and glue, it has to be some kind of glue. I was a woodworker in the past, and I have never seen glue that continued to smell much after it had dried, certainly not like this, so I'm at a loss, unless it's some kind of new chemical that is analogous to glue that they're using, though I can't imagine what.

I'll be speaking to the manufacturer next week to see what I can find out, and I'll give a report. Meanwhile, thanks to everyone for your help and comments.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2011 23:12:16

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Is it a chemical smell or a poo poo like smell? It could be hide glue that is rotten or rancid. The glue could be moldy. If it is you need to send them back.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 8 2011 23:18:07

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

This seems to me like a strong chemical smell. I'll know more by next week.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2011 2:00:10

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

This is just a guess, but it's also possible that it might be coming from the wood if it had been treated with some sort of chemical. The wood surface is exposed on the inside but not on the outside.

Perhaps the wood was treated with a chemical while it was stored in order to inhibit mold or to deter pests? Where were these guitars manufactured?

I suggest that you get them exchanged if it costs you nothing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2011 3:44:31

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

Guitars should smell almost like canela. If they don't it's wrong, just wrong. Does not matter why.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2011 5:08:25

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Guitars should smell almost like canela. If they don't it's wrong, just wrong. Does not matter why.

You're right. I'll speak to the manufacturer this week just out of curiosity as to what the cause is, but I'm sending them back. I would not sell these to anyone the way they are.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 9 2011 15:27:46

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

I'll speak to the manufacturer this week just out of curiosity as to what the cause is, but I'm sending them back. I would not sell these to anyone the way they are.

Just as well that you should. In my discussions with our local music shop, the owner told me that some manufacturers are effectively relying upon the retailer to do their quality control checks (rather than having the quality checked at the factory before the instrument goes out the door). I think this is just wrong.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2011 2:02:02

Jim Kirby

Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA

RE: Very strong glue fumes in new fa... (in reply to GuitarVlog)

quote:

Just as well that you should. In my discussions with our local music shop, the owner told me that some manufacturers are effectively relying upon the retailer to do their quality control checks (rather than having the quality checked at the factory before the instrument goes out the door). I think this is just wrong.

An epidemic that is rampant across all industries. Consider computer hard drives. About 5 % of these routinely fail early in their lifespan. It is cheaper for the manufacturer to let the consumer find the ones that do, and pay to replace them, than it is for the manufacturer to find them by testing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2011 12:15:26