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Tabs versus standard notation
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rombsix
Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon
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 Tabs versus standard notation
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Hello everyone,
I was asked by a friend who believes that standard notation is superior in all regards to tab - "What does a tab have over standard notation?" i.e., is there something that a tab has but which standard notation does NOT have?
I was thinking about fingering and location of where to play the notes on the fretboard, but standard notation can have that too (numbers in circles referring to string numbers). Is it perhaps a matter of practicality when it comes to notating fingering and note-location in tab as compared to standard notation (meaning, it's easier to just write numbers on six lines, rather than to draw dots on a staff, and then have to write numbers in circles above each note)?
He mentioned one point which I found strong which is that guitar standard notation sheet music can be played say on a flute, but tab cannot. (just as a side note)
So the question is, why is tab much more common in flamenco guitar? Is it just because the most famous / skillful transcribers (Faucher, etc.) decided to use tab and not standard notation?
PS: My friend is a classical guitarist, and I consider myself to be a flamenco guitarist. Also, I am by no means trying to open a can of worms here... So forgive me if I have.
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Ramzi
http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
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Date Sep. 30 2011 12:15:19
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xirdneH_imiJ
Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
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RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to rombsix)
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while many-many people will say standard notation is superior, and it is in a sense, it's versatile etc, tab has the distinct advantage of being super easy to learn to read and write...standard notations have to be worked out, you have to find the fingerings, even if there's help to it, it takes a bit of effort...whereas i get a tab, i start playing it and then it's over, job done...it makes it attractive to the masses that play guitar, not just flamenco...of course classical guitar is a doctrine and you're required to learn standard notation...it's massively frustrating that the same notes can mean very different things when they have different symbols at the start of the line...you need to study that and many people, especially those playing as amateurs are not willing to put in the hours to do that...of course if you go to a school learning music, classical or jazz, it's what you do as a full time thing, of course you have the time to do that...i don't...
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Date Sep. 30 2011 12:36:22
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rombsix
Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon
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RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to Guest)
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Just so nobody gets me wrong - I am NOT saying tab is better than standard notation, nor that standard notation is better than tab. I have read that the mind can process symbols in space (dots on staff) faster than it can numbers on lines (i.e. your brain actually having to "read" the number, rather than just being able to "see the dot in relation to how 'low or high' it is on the staff"). However, I am sure that we can always find two guitarists, regardless of whether they are classical or flamenco guitarists, who can read with utmost speed and efficiency either tab or standard notation. Thus, removing "reading" skill out of the equation, is there something one form of writing music can offer which the other cannot?
I don't know if it makes sense to even dare and ask this question, but still... "Look at a guitarist, whether classical or flamenco, who has totally mastered the fretboard and all the notes and standard notation symbols, and can equally read tab and standard notation. If he is given a piece of flamenco by PdL or a piece of classical by Bach, and each is presented in standard notation or tab, which means of musical writing will allow the guitarist to learn the piece faster?"  Am I pushing it?
Why do Worms, Paco Pena books, etc. include BOTH standard notation and tab? If standard notation is all inclusive, why have tab in there too? Is it just for people who do NOT know how to "read music?"
Elie - I don't find your argument (picture you included) very strong, with all due respect. I mean, I see no reason why such annotations CANNOT be included in tab. Again, I am not defending tab - just trying to have a discussion about this subject. Nothing personal against any of y'all.
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Ramzi
http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
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Date Sep. 30 2011 13:06:29
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samuel
Posts: 16
Joined: Oct. 12 2010
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RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to rombsix)
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I think there are specific advantages to both. Learning to read standard notation opens up a whole world of music that otherwise might not be available to the player. For instance, one can pick up a flute score and learn how a flutist would phrase certain things, etc. I realize you can pick this up by ear, but it has the advantage of being very specific and a lot of people don't have strong ears. (Although this can discourage really hearing what's going on, which is a much more valuable tool in my opinion.) You can learn to understand the arch of the music and such things as key, etc. Example being if I am playing in E minor and all the sudden I am in the relative major (E major) that information is right there in front of my eyes. Not that this is vital to understand if you just want to play the piece, but if you want to understand what is going on harmonically it can help. I think Elie's point is that if you never heard the piece, standard notation is usually much more specific as it denotes dynamics, tempo fluctuation, etc.
All that being said, I prefer tab that has rhythmic notation when I am learning flamenco pieces. To me, the voicing of the chords is much more clear with it. If you voice the chords in a different manner they don't have the same aire, which I think we would all agree is very important to flamenco. It's like the story of Manolo Sanlucar being in the studio with a jazz pianist and the pianist couldn't understand why the same A chord being played por medio or por arriba could infer two different palos and that a flamenco can hear that. To illustrate his point he plays iv-III-II-I in the por medio position and asks Chato de la Isla, who is in another room, "What genre am I playing in?' He answers, "Seguiriya." He then plays the same progression por arriba and Chato answers, "Serrana." The jazz pianist couldn't understand, because he didn't realize how important the voicings on the guitar were. I generally seem to learn faster from tab as well, but that might just be a personal thing. Although I personally hate tab without rhythmic notation because I feel rhythm is more important than the notes.
So I think for the complete musician who wants to play in many different styles, standard notation allows them to explore those worlds easier. For flamenco, I think that tab is more precise, in a quicker manner. This is all opinion of course, and I am far from an authority on the matter.
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Date Sep. 30 2011 14:29:09
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rombsix
Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon
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RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to samuel)
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Samuel: I disagree with what you said about Elie's comment. You can have a tab that DOES have those annotations of dynamics, etc. I mean, if I compose a piece, and I write it down as tab, and use dynamics annotation over the tabs, does that not work? I disagree about what you said on Manolo Sanlucar: standard notation can easily show whether an A chord has to be played open (first position) or as barre on the fifth fret, for example.
Deniz: thanks for that thread. I didn't come across it while searching. However, I do not regret generating this new thread because I feel this thread deals with a unique topic.
Terry: Maybe you're right. It might be easier to "see" intervals or the sort while looking at dots stacked over each other in standard notation.
gaash: I'm assuming we are dealing with someone who already knows how to read both standard notation and tab very well. About giving one direct translation onto the fretboard: look at Elie's picture. It shows letters in circles, and I've also seen numbers in circles. These represent strings. So theoretically, standard notation can specify the notes, and can, like tab, ultimately tell you exactly on which strings (and thus which frets) to play them on. HOWEVER, perhaps tab allows you to figure out where to fret the notes (what strings) FASTER than standard notation. Still, I think this difference in speed of recognition theoretically vanishes if someone has COMPLETELY mastered the fretboard with all notes/frets on all strings.
Stratos: I am assuming that we are comparing tabs that are fully complete with standard notation that is fully complete (both have rhythm, dynamics, fingerings, string specifications, etc.). If that is the case, would your sequence still apply?
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Ramzi
http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
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Date Sep. 30 2011 15:24:43
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Paul Magnussen
Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
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RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to rombsix)
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Advantages of tab
• It’s easier for beginners to read.
• It’s much quicker and easier to write by hand. You can get six-line manuscript paper from the Lute Society. It’s trivial to put time values in. You can show separate voices by turning stems up and down, as with staff notation. This was how I did my transcriptions for 25 years.
• It takes up less space because you don’t have to leave room for all those ledger lines. A piece in tab typically takes not much more than half the number of pages of the same piece in staff.
• It’s independent of tuning. This is no big deal in classical or flamenco guitar, where scordatura tunings are restricted to 2 or 3 standard ones (D-bass, rondeña, lute tuning); but for something like folk guitar or old-time banjo, where there are literally dozens of tunings, it’s a major plus.
Advantages of staff notation
• It’s the standard medium for almost all published music. Even in Flamenco, there’s stuff you can’t get any other way (e.g. Joseph Trotter’s Sabicas and Escudero transcriptions, Alain Faucher’s Montoya book).
• It’s the same for all instruments.
• There’s more (and IMHO better) software for producing it than for producing tab; a lot of which allows fine control of playback.
For a couple of decades now I’ve been doing my transcriptions in Finale because:
a) I can play back the result.
b) It’s easy to make corrections.
c) The output looks nicer.
d) I can concentrate on the right notes, and think about fingering afterwards.
Recent versions can notate tab, and also make a stab at producing a tab version from staff notation, which you can then correct manually.
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Date Sep. 30 2011 20:47:19
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beno
Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary
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RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to rombsix)
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I thinks one should just learn both, and decide after.
It's not that complicated as may some of You think - If You chose the right tool for it.
As I mentioned here a couple of times there are some very beneficial guitar programs that make learning the notes on the neck, or reading standard notation easy to reach:
fretboard warrior - learn all notes on the neck - It took me approx one week with not too much an effort (let's say 10 min. a day)....and it's free...great to start with
absolute freatboard (AFT): This one goes into deeper. You can really learn the notes on the neck from different aspects. It's an interactive thing, You're supposed to play along with scheduled exercises....It's fun and easy and You learn to connect the staff symbols with the exact positions.
And there are more. I'm not a distributor of any of the above, It's just really helped me a LOT. I wouldn't call myself a fast sightreader, but I don't have difficulties on that part. It's the reading of the rythms that's hard for me, I prefer learn by watching else doing it 
I prefer TABs, but that's just because I've used it more often, so it became easier so it became faster.
One should experience both, then found out what they prefer, I really don't think one is better than the other, it's the point of the personal preference that counts, but one should have the alternatives to REALLY decide on whats easier/faster etc. for Him.
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Date Sep. 30 2011 20:58:30
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to rombsix)
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It's what you are use to and how it suits yourself , TAB is exclusively for the guitar and does not translate to other instruments unlike music notation ,
For myself music notation is far better than TAB as I am used to it , and that’s the main point. If I get a piece of music I can pretty much play it straight away, but TAB is just annoying for me , I already have a system that works fine , why would I want another ?
TAB is an annoyance for me as some tunes have just TAB , argh , where’s my music !!, I don’t need to sit and decipher an inferior system , of course sometimes both are available
Of course as I say this is me, other people do not want to learn music notation and just use the guitar, well that's fine.
I used to read music from violin, trumpet, flute, saxophone, anything really just to practice, it would also give you an insight into how other instruments worked and how people thought.
Even in TAB you would still have to learn the rhythm notation indicated by the stems so you really almost are learning how to read music.
quote:
Advantages of tab
• It’s much quicker and easier to write by hand. You can get six-line manuscript paper from the Lute Society.
I disagree, again it depends what you are used to, I can jot down a lot of stuff with a pencil and paper quite quickly on manuscript paper you can get from almost anywhere.
quote:
It takes up less space because you don’t have to leave room for all those ledger lines.
If you had a long passages of ledger lines it is not uncommon to write the octave up or down sign (8va) and stay on the stave to avoid this.
quote:
A piece in TAB typically takes not much more than half the number of pages of the same piece in staff
Not really true as a TAB would still have bar lines and therefore both styles would have the same number of bars in the same tune, I don’t see why that should be different , in notation you would use repeats with first and second time endings which would shorten the tune , I don’t actually know if that exists in TAB , I assume it does.
quote:
• It’s independent of tuning.
Notation if way more independent of tuning than TAB , its even independent of instrument , and you can have more then one staff and many different clefs , I have stuff written for guitar in different tunings , the tuning is marked at the beginning and ( as with TAB ) away you go
So , as I said that’s just me ,and as I said we already have a good system which has developed with time , why invent another ....
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Date Sep. 30 2011 21:35:31
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Paul Magnussen
Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
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RE: Tabs versus standard notation (in reply to El Kiko)
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quote:
I disagree, again it depends what you are used to, I can jot down a lot of stuff with a pencil and paper quite quickly on manuscript paper you can get from almost anywhere.
Let’s take one example. It’s quite common in guitar music to have an E on the 6th string at the same time as an E on the 12th fret of the 1st string.
To write that in tab, you have to write 0 & 12. To write it in staff notation you have to write two notes and six ledger lines. I rest my case.
quote:
If you had a long passages of ledger lines it is not uncommon to write the octave up or down sign (8va) and stay on the stave to avoid this.
Doesn’t help when you have lower voices in the normal octaves.
quote:
Not really true as a TAB would still have bar lines and therefore both styles would have the same number of bars in the same tune
The problem is vertical spacing, not horizontal.
quote:
Notation if way more independent of tuning than TAB , its even independent of instrument , and you can have more then one staff and many different clefs , I have stuff written for guitar in different tunings , the tuning is marked at the beginning and ( as with TAB ) away you go
The tuning is marked, but the ability to sight-read the notes is predicated on standard tuning. Can you sight-read Koyunbaba, which is in C# minor tuning?
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Date Sep. 30 2011 21:55:13
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