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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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 RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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Richard you lived through some really interesting times. I thought about becoming an aeronautical engineer, but choose gluing sticks together instead.
I had a relative who was deeply involved with the Vietnam war at the very top level in the Pentagon, I think much of my cynicism about US policy is derived from listening to him recount the political fights in the Pentagon during that war. Anyway, the space ace was indeed exciting, I was a young child and I followed it with an obsession only rivaled by my interest in hand tying fishing flies and dreaming of catching a tarpon on light tackle while watching a take off at Cape Canaveral.
Regarding Kelly Johnson, I've always maintained he was a very important figure in American life, both militarily and culturally, whom most Americans have never heard of. The car industry culture and industrial design of the mid century was highly influenced on the surface treatment of design by the space age and the jet age. Kelly Johnson was perhaps the best aircraft designer, or among the top few, and his influence over the way aircraft worked and looked as enormous. All that precipitated over into the auto designs of the 1950's and 60's as body style and marketing points. A kind of extended cold war propaganda to sell cars based on the visually seductive nature of high performance aircraft. I love it I must say.
And the aircraft themselves that Kelly Johnson designed have never been out done. His airplane still holds the speed and altitude records. I'm sure you know all about it and that his aircraft pointed the way to making planes with smaller and smaller radar signatures. Beautiful seductive killing and picture taking machines. I think he was a great America industrial designer who's work had abroad influence on all design, but nobody knows who he is except pilots and engineers.
So yeah Cold War! It gave us things to look at. The U-2 and the A-11...SR-71 and Edwin Lands amazing cameras mounted in them that had super resolution from 70,000 feet. It all was pretty heady.
Then one day my English teacher hit me with this: The Birches by Robert Frost
When I see birches bend to left and right
Across the lines of straighter darker trees,
I like to think some boy's been swinging them.
But swinging doesn't bend them down to stay.
Ice-storms do that. Often you must have seen them
Loaded with ice a sunny winter morning
After a rain. They click upon themselves
As the breeze rises, and turn many-colored
As the stir cracks and crazes their enamel.
Soon the sun's warmth makes them shed crystal shells
Shattering and avalanching on the snow-crust--
Such heaps of broken glass to sweep away
You'd think the inner dome of heaven had fallen.
They are dragged to the withered bracken by the load,
And they seem not to break; though once they are bowed
So low for long, they never right themselves:
You may see their trunks arching in the woods
Years afterwards, trailing their leaves on the ground
Like girls on hands and knees that throw their hair
Before them over their heads to dry in the sun.
But I was going to say when Truth broke in
With all her matter-of-fact about the ice-storm
(Now am I free to be poetical?)
I should prefer to have some boy bend them
As he went out and in to fetch the cows--
Some boy too far from town to learn baseball,
Whose only play was what he found himself,
Summer or winter, and could play alone.
One by one he subdued his father's trees
By riding them down over and over again
Until he took the stiffness out of them,
And not one but hung limp, not one was left
For him to conquer. He learned all there was
To learn about not launching out too soon
And so not carrying the tree away
Clear to the ground. He always kept his poise
To the top branches, climbing carefully
With the same pains you use to fill a cup
Up to the brim, and even above the brim.
Then he flung outward, feet first, with a swish,
Kicking his way down through the air to the ground.
So was I once myself a swinger of birches.
And so I dream of going back to be.
It's when I'm weary of considerations,
And life is too much like a pathless wood
Where your face burns and tickles with the cobwebs
Broken across it, and one eye is weeping
From a twig's having lashed across it open.
I'd like to get away from earth awhile
And then come back to it and begin over.
May no fate willfully misunderstand me
And half grant what I wish and snatch me away
Not to return. Earth's the right place for love:
I don't know where it's likely to go better.
I'd like to go by climbing a birch tree,
And climb black branches up a snow-white trunk
Toward heaven, till the tree could bear no more,
But dipped its top and set me down again.
That would be good both going and coming back.
One could do worse than be a swinger of birches.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Aug. 24 2011 18:25:01
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to Rain)
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When Bill said I must have done some incredible mental gymnastics to arrive at the idea the Berlin Wall was similar in intention to the Gaza fence, those gymnastics involved calculating that the Palestinian government knew in advance what would happen if they did not pull in those among the population that aggravated the Israelis.
Twisted as that may be, I think there is a certain amount of victim politics played and the Gazans have been relegated to the role being the lambs. To be fair, the surrounding Arab states are not helping them as much as they could be either. I may be audacious in saying that the Palistinian government uses the intensity of Gaza internment area to play up the situation.
As for the naming them terrorists, it think that is too shop worn of a device to place any real value or truth on the situation. When I wrote terrorist I caved to status quo of the media language, and I had second thoughts but never elaborated on why the word terrorist hold little value in this situation. "Terrorist" is like a brand now, it's like saying Burger King, Mc Donalds or Prada. It's meaning has been watered down though over use and by incorrectly applied by media which turns the word into a political subjective term. But the media, collectively, is pretty stupid about how it uses language and about how accurate that language can be. The media is rife with descriptive cliche' and monkey see monkey do word usage.
As far as terrorists are concerned the worse terrorist against peace in my opinion, and a true terrorist was the idiot who assassinated Yitzhak Rabin. He was a worse terrorist than all of them combined on any side. He terrorized the his own country, Palestine and the whole world in a key moment when history could have been changed. A real ass-hole.
Forgive the mental gymnastics and any unresponsible or disagreeable use of the word terrorist.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Aug. 24 2011 20:05:59
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to estebanana)
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Stephen, during my active U.S. Foreign Service career (I am retired now, although I still do consulting for the State Department), I was assigned to the American Embassy in Santiago, Chile from 1987 to 1990. At that time, NOAA (in colaboration with NASA) was doing some research on the Antarctic ozone hole, and there was a small contingent of scientists and researchers based in Punta Arenas, in the far south of Chile, on the Strait of Magellan. It was my great good fortune to be invited to fly with them in a converted DC-10 from Punta Arenas to the South Pole and back, while they conducted experiments and research. But what was even more impressive (for me) was they operated an SR-71 aircraft for high altitude research. Of course, I did not fly in the SR-71, but I saw it up close and personal in the hanger. What a sleek bird it was. A real beauty, and it still is, in my opinion.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 24 2011 20:14:42
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to Rain)
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quote:
One man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter!
I would be careful how you use that phrase, Rain. Do you recall that during the mid-1940s, during the British Mandate over Palestine, Menachim Begin led the Jewish terrorist organization Irgun Zvai Leumi and committed atrocities against both Palestinian Arabs (remember Deir Yassin?) and the British (remember the bombing of the King David Hotel, killing British officers?). Menachim Begin later became Israeli Prime Minister in 1977, and signed the Peace Treaty with Egypt under Anwar Sadat.
The reason I would be careful in your use of that phrase, Rain, is that it is a double-edged sword. The very same phrase was used to defend Menachim Begin against those who called him a terrorist. I assume that you would agree that he thought of himself as a "freedom fighter" as well, even though you might not agree with his goal at the time.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 24 2011 20:29:00
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to estebanana)
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Stephen and Richard, not only did the SR-71 have quircks, magnificent bird that it was (and is!), but the wingspan was so wide and the wings so flexible that left on their own, the wing tips touched the ground. Thus, when the aircraft took off it required a support with wheels at the tip of each wing, in order to keep the wing tips from dragging the ground. I believe the same thing was true of the U2 as well.
God, that Blackbird was (is) a magnificent machine. It was a real tribute to engineering and aeronautics.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 25 2011 6:37:37
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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There is no sense in accusing "them", in the Israel / Palestine conflict.
For, just as there do exist Israeli philanthrops who are standing for the Palestinians´rights ( and have their heads regularly smashed by the executive ), there exist contra productive fanatics in Gaza too.
There is only one certain way for this conflict to ever get solved in a durable way.
The ( at first legal then ) forcible immigrants to palestine have to admit historical injust and act of occupation.
The expell named in the bible has never been. This has been proven by archeaologics years ago. The tale in the bible is an overblown link to a historical expell of a relatively small number of Jewish people from villages that were not located in todays Palestine but in Syria.
( These excavations and findings were done under the supervision of a Jewish professor of archeology, who only proves one other time how sincere and objective a people there are among the Israeli. [ Only imagine the courage this man alone has shown by disproving the myth that makes the whole of fancied legitimation / of attaint against the natives.]
From there the birth of the Zionist idea and its following excution by the financial help of Rothschild and following support of the US and Germany have never equalled any return to hereditary homeland, but invasion to foreign country.
This sober fact has to be acknowledged and confessed first, before any kind of negotiation could be taking place which could be taken for real and provide fair preconditions.
And there is no alternative.
If Israeli policies should remain as arbitrary, cruel and undermining historical circumstances of injust as they are, Israel will be ending up miserably.
The fact of no longer available foreign ressources to the USA, together with the fact of rapture capitalism having distroyed national production facility, the US are long since facing total bankrupcy; so far prevented on cost of other economies, yet, coming through in the following years.
With this, foreign support which used to enable Israels dictatorial regency to date with certainty will be fading out.
And should Israel´s policy not have changed to that point in time, it will be overolled and distroyed by millions of Arabs who have been steered up throughout three generations by now.
Without the money and weapons from their allies Israel will be torn apart and with it many of the guiltless Jewish people and humanists who actually used to take stand for the Palestine people during the regime.
The warmongers and profiteers of Israel however will have fled the country before. They, anticipating the development, have since ~ 15 years now already started transfering their funds to overseas and been preparing exile. Just the way how it commonly goes with nomenclatura and beneficiaries of dictatures.
-
Have you heard Obama´s speech on the situation in Lybia? How he demanded that the interests of "all" must be considered. "All", hence logically including the thugs of the regime.
Why the hell should human rats who engaged themselves in benefitting under a regime´s shelter, betraying, suppressing and torturing the people, be left untouched in the aftermath?
So that there be no reminder for perfidious characters to think twice in the next regime?
Look at these hosts of brutes after all the dicatures from Third Reich to the remains of the eastern Block: How the vast of them maintained their privileges unchecked, with no slightest lesson taken.
Is that the way things got to be?
Ruphus
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Date Aug. 25 2011 12:34:19
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Rain
Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to chester)
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quote:
You mean about the Armenians killed by the Turks? BAM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
Or was is about the Kurds (also killed by the Turks)? BAM http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/world/europe/20briefs-Turkey.html
Dear BamBam,don't you love Google, or how it makes you sound smart.
I have read countless of books on the so-called Armenian genocide by historians pro and anti, and cannot still determine that it can be justly called a genocide. However, I do find it fascinating how the number of deaths went from 50 thousand to 1.5 million in the past 30 years. And the why, I could never get a good answer to the "Why", especially since at a time when the Turkey is being attacked on all corners, and would need the Armenian-Turkish citizens to take up arms against it's attackers, it decides to kill them.
The only Kurds that I know being killed by Turks are PKK terrorist's, who just happen to be trained by ex-Israel military servicemen, for a large sum of cash. There are millions of Turkish-Kurds living happily in Turkey today, who even serve in the military.
Chester,please send me another Kurdish link that makes your point and give me a double BAM_BAM. Because the link you provided does not make your point.
quote:
I'm sorry but was it not you who attacked me and behaved in a ignorant manner.
No. Read this thread again, from the beginning.
I don't need to read it again, you were angered by "Israeli Zionist thieves" and felt the need to attack me because the truth hurts, or you do not know what a zionist is nor the definition of theft. So let me help you understand the meaning of Zionist as defined by the world members of the UN, a zionist is a racist. And, well you know what a thief does.
As far as your disapproval and dismissal of the linked video as propaganda, I have hundreds more. Maybe one of them would meet your approval.
_____________________________
Free Palestine
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Date Aug. 25 2011 16:54:36
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Rain
Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
Wow, You would do well to moderate your language and gracefully bow out. I find this deeply offensive that you would accuse one group of people of aggression and not recognize a point of history that is well documented.
A point of history that is well documented? By whom? How many books have you read on the subject? and how did you come to the conclusion that a genocide occurred.
Let me remind you that many of what we read in history books is inaccurate and one sided, from the pilgrims celebrating thanksgiving with the Indians, when in fact we did not because we were to busy killing them, committing genocide, to the dropping of the Atomic bomb, which was unnecessary because the Japanese had surrendered 2 days prior.
When I say that I have read countless of books on the so-called Armenian genocide by historians pro and anti, and cannot still determine that it can be justly called a genocide.
that statement does not mean I have a definite answer of yes it did occur or no that it did not. I have read many books, too many, by historians who say it did and others who argued it did not.
Blind acceptance of such horrendous accusations is a sign of ignorance, and perpetuates falsities. I challenge you to not hold my position regarding the Armenian issue after reading a few books written by respected historians who are pro and anti on the subject,
and then come back to me and say behind a reasonable this and that happened. I dare you.
I would gladly appease you regarding the inflammatory language you accuse me of using when you point that language out.
_____________________________
Free Palestine
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Date Aug. 25 2011 18:52:24
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: 13 August: An Infamous Anniversary (in reply to Rain)
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quote:
the dropping of the Atomic bomb, which was unnecessary because the Japanese had surrendered 2 days prior.
Rain, for someone who brags about how many history books he has read, and who asks sarcastically of those with whom he disagrees how many they have read, your knowledge of history appears woefully inadequate. Take your statement cited above. The Japanese had surrendered two days prior to the dropping of the atomic bomb??? What calendar are you using???
The first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945. The second was dropped on Nagasaki on August 9, 1945. Japan announced it would surrender six days after the second bomb was dropped, on August 15, 1945, and the actual surrender ceremony was held, with General Douglas MacArthur presiding, aboard the battleship Missouri in Tokyo Bay on September 2, 1945. You would do well to acquaint yourself with a bit of history before accusing others of lacking knowledge of same.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Aug. 25 2011 20:22:57
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