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Singers,dancers and guitarrists point of view about flamenco.
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Doitsujin
Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
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 Singers,dancers and guitarrists poin...
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Hello all,
I talked with many people about flamenco.
And I heared many totally different opinions about flamenco.
Many of them only like one part of flamenco.
If they like the cante and dance, they most often llike the traditional style.
I often saw that they are very against modern flamenco.
And most often them were dancing people.
And on the other hand most people I talked to, who like the modern flamenco were the guitarrists. But in general, they all say that the traditional is still very important. If you dont know the traditional things. You cant play modern.
So they like both, modern and traditional.
And one more phenomen.
Ive never found a dancer who liked solo guitar CDs as guitarrists.
They all told me" ok its very nice music, but I cant hear a whole guitar CD from beginning to the end. I would get balla balla..But a cante CD I can hear the whole day"
And the guitarrists I talked to said both is great.
So..are solo guitar CDs only interesting for guitarrists?
I think the cante dance and the guitar belongs together, but the singers live in their cante world. The dancers most often live in a dance-cante world.
And the guitarrists who have to understand all 3(most), often live in a (dance-cante)guitar world(often only a guitar world).
So they all have to work together, but they dont live together in one flamenco world. Thats not good I think.
I´m very interested in hearing your experiences about that.
And what do you think about that if you are guitarrist or dancer or singer?
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Date Apr. 16 2005 11:56:46
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Doitsujin)
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It seems to me that guitarists are the only musicians of the bunch. Dancers dance, singers sing... to properly function, a guitarist must know both, right? And also devote himself to the awesome demands of the guitar. Overall there seems to be a contempt for the guitar in flamenco, from dancers and singers and even guitarists themselves.
When I was in Spain, I noticed the guitarists tended to be in the corner, very bland and unexpressive. They seemed to suck the life right out of their side of the stage, while the singers contorted their faces and bodies as if to wring every ounce of emotion from their bodies. The dancers of course moved themselves with the music. It seems to me that singers and dancers are fans of compas, fans of expression, fans of being the center of attention, but they are no musicians.
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Date Apr. 16 2005 15:19:39
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Kate
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
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RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
It seems to me that guitarists are the only musicians of the bunch.
Dont be a daft apeth, flamenco singers are without a doubt musicians, most singers I know can even pick up the guitar and play to a greater or lesser degree. Are you saying singing is not music ? As for flamenco dancers, they are the most amazing percussionists I have ever seen. We put Ana Calí's dancing on a record, why ??? Because of the music she makes obviously.
quote:
Overall there seems to be a contempt for the guitar in flamenco, from dancers and singers and even guitarists themselves.
I have never come across this, the guitar is fundamental in flamenco, guitarists are totally respected.
quote:
It seems to me that singers and dancers are fans of compas, fans of expression, fans of being the center of attention, but they are no musicians.
Singers and dancers are merely FANS, sorry Mike my friend but really. What on earth makes you say this ? Guitarist are undervalued musicians whereas dancers and singers are simply showing off. I think you may be biased 
Kate
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Date Apr. 16 2005 16:08:39
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Thomas Whiteley
Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area
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RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Doitsujin)
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quote:
´m very interested in hearing your experiences about that.
And what do you think about that if you are guitarrist or dancer or singer?
I think you will find as many opinions about this topic as there are stars in the sky. It is a matter of preference and what audience you are addressing.
During the last 45 years I have met many flamencos from Spain and fans throughout the world.
Ask a Gitano, “What is flamenco”? You will get more than one answer from even this group but for them it was and in some ways still is a way of life.
What is flamenco? That is up to you. You can love the guitar, cajon, palmas, baile or cante. You can love any combination.
Within flamenco circles you will find a balance for all elements of what makes up flamenco. It is like a hand and glove. For those that play or enjoy listening to “flamenco like” music, then they make up his/her own rules. Often such folks do not understand the many aspects of flamenco. They choose what they like and discard the rest.
By the way my wife is trained in baile y cante, and we have been married over 39 years. The reason her family originally accepted me was I play flamenco guitar. I play at family events as well as other places, and played professionally before getting married.
As I am old fashioned I like traditional flamenco – be it cante, baile, or guitar. I like to understand what palo is being played without having to be told by the performer. I love Carmen Amaya (for baile y cante) and Sabicas, to name just two.
When you get away from true flamenco people tend to look upon one or two aspects of flamenco as being important. The rest are discarded for personal reasons. It is a sign of our times – people are not willing to attempt to understand the whole picture so they dismiss everything else. Everything else is inferior and it is all about ME! 
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Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
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Date Apr. 16 2005 16:48:32
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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Mike,
I think it's all about "selling" the piece.
The sort of audiences I see at the peñas and shows on Ondajerz, seem to be fans of the Flamenco "experience". They need their injection of that sound and that passion IMO.
This is conveyed better and more directly by a good singer, with some moments from a good dancer.
Subtle or fancy guitar work has no use in this context.
Guitarists are more or less interchangeable, the audience are there to get the experience of say, Capullo or José Mercé ...and if one of his guitarists is sick that night, then they are not going to cancel the show...they'll get somebody else in.
These guys have great "presence" as well as being great singers.
It's not that different from, say, the Rolling Stones IMO...
If Keith Richard or Ronnie Wood can't make it, then the show will still go on.
But if Jagger's off ill....well...then there's no show!
Although the Stones' sound and original numbers is down to everybody in the band, Mick is the one who "sells" it to the crowd, he's the guy who gets them on their feet.
I think guitarists play their "complicated" stuff for other guitarists and guitar fans.
cheers
Ron
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Date Apr. 16 2005 16:54:31
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to flyeogh)
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Biased? I suppose I am biased, but I can't think of any form of collaborative music where the musician is center stage. It is always the vocalist and then anyone who is moving (dancer) who will draw the eye. That has little to do with flamenco, but much to do with the discussion.
I don't have any contempt or dislike of singers (I sing too actually, and it's a load of fun; and will dance when I get the time to learn!) but my opinon stands. Singers are artists but they are not musicians (unless they are expert guitarists or pianists or whatever). A lot of people like to disparage rappers, but they are expert improvisers, who make up their own letras on the spot and do so with simple but impeccable rhythm. This is something different than singing a cante with only three lines isn't it? Yet it's wrong to point out that cantaors are not musicians? They are not musicians, they are singers--unless they are musicians, if you catch my drift. Of course I understand that most singers can play a little guitar...well Paco did a little singing on some of his albums, so does that make him a cantaor? Vicente sang on his last album, but no one noticed and no one is insistning that he should be dignified with the term of cantaor either.
Now I don't consider a dancer a musician either, unless she plays a musical instrument. Dancers dance, musicians play music. Drums or taconeo or the tops of sherry barrels, don't count. This may be considered a bias, and of course it is only my personal definition of music, but I believe a musician must understand melody and harmony to call himself that, not just rhythm. The best drummer in the world is not a musician for just playign drums--this is my opinion and of course doesn't represent a large number of people. A percussionist is a percussionist and is a valuable and essential part of a musical group, but I consider it rather flip to think of them in the same way as a guitar or pianist, who has a vast knowledge of harmony that a drummer will never need to know.
I was playing for a dance class of Lydia Torrea, a successful dancer from the US. She toured with Jose Greco and made movies, etc. I was rather embarrassed when, when I told her and the class I practiced about 4 hours a day, that she told me that she hardly ever practiced! I don't think you'll hear someone like Vicente Amigo say that he hardly ever practiced.
I have the utmost of respect for Lydia and for cantaors, who after all are the heart and soul of flamenco. But they are not musicians.
Lots of people don't like to listen to solo guitar albums, and that's fine. It shows to me that they don't prefer flamenco guitar, but actually prefer the other parts of flamenco. Maybe in the next life they will be cantaors instead. Kate, I believe you when you say you have never witnessed any disparagement of guitarists, but mine is not an isolated experience. You can read Gerardo Nunez' interview on flamenco-world for someone with some more credibility than me. In fact quite a few of the guitarists' interviews on that website speak of the frustrations of guitarists.
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Date Apr. 16 2005 17:55:29
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Guest
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RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Doitsujin)
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About guitarists:
quote:
Only in a falseta or solo he can express himself, no?
I totally disagree. Listen to Parilla accompanying Agujetas por siguiriya. He's so minimalist. Some rasgueados as an intro and no falsetas, yet he's capable of expressing his flamenco with so much power. Falsetas and solos are nice, but they are not important.
The discussion on whether dancers and singers are musicians is far out. Of course they are. It's all about interaction. You play with a dancer and not to a dancer. And whether a singer is capable of playing the guitar or the trumpet doesn't make him/her more or less musician. Why? because the voice is an instrument.............................. Far out discussion 
Guitarists are often being treated like dogs in flamenco , but it doesn't mean they are the only ones making music.
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Date Apr. 17 2005 7:48:56
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Doitsujin)
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I suppose I am a little over-protective of the word "musician." I practice a lot, and have accumulated a lot of knowledge about the instrument, various styles of music, music theory, etc. The time and level of committment it takes to become a guitarist, or any instrumentalist, is vast. Advanced students who enter the better music conservatories have already practiced 10,000 - 18,000 hours! At music--! I guess we can call part-time dancers or singers who can also play a little cajon musicians, too. All a matter of how you define the word. Like--what is "art" and what is not?
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Date Apr. 17 2005 15:15:14
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Guest
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RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Doitsujin)
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Miguel
The good dancers practice the same amount of hours as the good guitarists. About singers, I dont know. But remember that art is something you dont messure with hours.
Art is art even though it only takes a split second to create and that's what makes it different.
Nice playing
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Date Apr. 17 2005 18:59:06
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Doitsujin)
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This topic is something I have thought a lot about over the years, and I agree or identify w/ everyone's thoughts so far (even the ones that seem to conflict). Just want to add a bit of my point of view.
I have met actually a couple of dancers who DO actually like SOME flamenco guitar CDs. True, they are few. I think it would be great if the singers and dancers were into the guitar, to the same degree the guitarists are "into" the cante and baile. But it is not really necessary. There are good guitarists who only play for cante. There are plenty of dancers who say they are "into" the cante, when they really don't know much about it except for some reason they need it to fit in this one little space in their super long choreography. For guitarists, there is a very different way to play depending on whether you specialize more for cante accomp, or baile accomp. Cante soloists are different than singers who specialize in singing for baile. The solo flamenco guitar may contain elements of both accomp styles, but it is the "instrumental" version.
Instrumental music vs vocal music is and always has required a longer attention span from the listener. Unless it is background music, or people are dancing to the music. Vocal music makes more of a connection w/ the listener, because of the lyric. Dance is a visual spectical, though flamencos also make percussive sounds ie, "music". That is more appealing to the masses. People who can listen to instrumental music for extended periods, I mean really LISTEN, would have no trouble w/ listening to a flamenco guitar CD all the way through. But a foreignor who doesn't speak Spanish could more easily get bored by cante. Even if you do speak Spanish, cante is an aquired taste because of the singing style. So that is why it seems strange to the outside world, why the guitar has the role it does in flamenco.
But solo flamenco guitar music, in terms of guitar music IN GENERAL, is SUPER complex and advanced. ANY guitarist from any genre can recognize this. Even a simpler flamenco guitar stylist (soloist) is still considered on a high level by the rest of the world's guitar players. This makes it even harder to listen too, but also harder to understand why it is not put on more of a pedastal, especially in Spain. How can Paco de Lucia, Manolo Sanlucar, Sabicas, whoever, sit there and back up a singer or dancer when he has composed master pieces that Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chick Corea etc, would marval at? Worse, how could a flamenco dancer/singer say that some of those master works, BORE them?
You see, the outside world looks at flamenco guitarists as composers, the singers/dancers as interpretors. Poverotti vs Beethoven. But in the flamenco world, the guitarist is an accompanist whose only "composing" is needed for "give me a little falsetta here-no that is too long..." or "go all out and do a self indulgent guitar solo so I can change my costume". So the flamenco guitar soloists brought up in this envirionment have a lot to express, some of them are real monsters on the instrument. Supreme virtuosos, master composers, but are not really respected like that. The respect comes from knowing how to support and accompany well. Moraito said accompanying was easier than solo playing, because the soloist has a big responsibilty of communicating to the audience directly. The accompanyist can hide in the back and do his job.
My own tastes are at present like this:
Cante, I prefer old style, pre Camaron. Jerez style mainly.
Baile, I like Post Carmen Amaya, but the Yerbabuena stuff, tons of cortes is too much for me. I like the rhythm fast and tight, but like a wave people are riding. I don't mind worked out stuff, but I like poly rhythms. Imagine a guitar solo where the cajon played the rhythm of each falseta instead of keeping a beat and doing fills. It would get annoying fast.
Guitar: I prefer the modern style players starting from Paco. I like the rhythm to be real even tempo w/ synchopation. For me, M. Sanlucar's stuff is the most advanced, requiring a long attention span. Very sophisticated. I like the advanced rhythmic stuff, but the harmonically outside stuff is too much for me-Canizares, Nueva Escuela, etc. I love the rhythm, but not the way they are deliberately avoiding the cadence. I want more "phrygian", more resolution.
Ricardo
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Date Apr. 18 2005 9:25:32
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Ricardo)
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Good piece Ricardo,
On this "fame in Spain" thing, it's almost like guitarists have to come up through the back door to gain "fame" with the Flamenco establishment, either by becoming associated with a reknowned singer or perhaps by becoming noticed in an International context and then being sought out by those singers.
I think maybe these days the top singers are becoming aware of the popularity of the guitar outside Spain and are more complient to do "collaboration" albums, where the guitarist has plenty space to compose and play and not simply accompany according to the singer's taste.
Just a side issue here...but when I mentioned Diego Amaya to Amir Haddad, his immediate response was "Yeah.....Capullo!"
Sort of shows the mindset of the guitarists themselves LOL!
quote:
but not the way they are deliberately avoiding the cadence. I want more "phrygian", more resolution.
Yeah, absolutely.
What I do love though is when a guitarist will go into a weird key, perhaps a major one, lead you all over the place and lead back into the cadence....that sort of stuff when done well makes the hair on the back of my neck tingle.
cheers
Ron
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Date Apr. 18 2005 11:24:22
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Guest
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RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Doitsujin)
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Hold on a second. Paco de Lucía is not considered secondary. At least not here in Spain. He's actually considered THE one who made flamenco known to the rest of the world. He won the Prince of Asturias price this year for the same reason.
PDL is VERY famous here and is considered one of the biggest contemporary artists.
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Date Apr. 19 2005 6:12:31
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Singers,dancers and guitarrists ... (in reply to Grisha)
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quote:
Because flamenco purists don't seem to care about their art and prefer to keep the guitar part simple and even rough.
Grisha,
No disrespect to you, but I don't think that is a completely fair analysis. (By the way I wouldn't consider myself a "purist".)
I think it's more the way Flamenco comes across in the Singing/Dancing/Guitar format.
(I'm talking about "live" Flamenco shows here, to an aficionado Spanish audience.)
The audience love when the singer "loses it" in a peak of passion, with clenched fists and tortured expression and you get the round of "olés".
Dancers can make their movements big and loud and dramatic and "lose it" too.
(Mind you amongst the professionals I think a lot of the "losing it" has been practised very carefully LOL!)
It is very difficult to "lose it" on the guitar LOL!
You can't do it with subtle or clever playing.
The falsetas which go down best, seem to be things like say, the heavy thumb with index finger playing octaves like Niño Jero in Siguiriyas. He hammers and distorts the notes and produces quite an ugly, rough tone....but he gets the audience and performers with him and gets his share of the "olés".
I think that's why the guitar has split off into the Solo art, which is a completely different thing and is more suited to the concert hall than the Flamenco Peña.
I think the issues raised in this thread also bug the top guitarists and that's why I have a lot of respect for guys like Gerardo Nuñez, who has just walked away from it and does his own thing.
It is possible maybe, that due to more "collaboration" albums, where the singer and guitarist has equal billing, that this will slowly change the audience expectation to include some more adventurous falsetas and subtle playing...but I sort of doubt it.
I think the "International" acts, such as Paco de Lucia, Vincente Amigo, Tomatito, Manolo etc will still tour with their own groups, where they themselves have the final artistic control, but I think in 20 years time, the Flamenco as played in the peñas and theatres of Jerez will still have that "rough" sound.
So to sum up, what I'm saying is that this is possibly the reason why a lot of Singers and Dancers are not into solo guitar, as it requires an interest in the guitar as an instrument and I think to enjoy solo guitar to the maximum, you must play guitar yourself, even if it is just a few chords or stumbling over a few simple falsetas.
Equally, I would say that there are a lot of Solo Flamenco guitar enthusiasts, who are not keen on singing or dancing, thus proving it has developed into a different thing.
cheers
Ron
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Date Apr. 19 2005 9:01:14
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Sure, I can play a little solo or two on the guitar, but to me it feels empty and not as fun without the support of the singers, dancers, and percussionists. Whether they are 'musicians' or not, to me is a moot point. It's what drive and inspiration they can give me to achieve the higher level of expression and in turn what I can do for them in return. This is what satisfies me most about the flamenco experience. 
