A beginner's question about seating and posture.

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ecross

Posts: 20
Joined: Jun. 28 2011
From: British Columbia, Canada

A beginner's question about seating ...

Last week I decided to delve into flamenco guitar for the first time. I can't say I know very much about it yet, but nonetheless I really like it. It is like learning to use my left hand (I play left handed) all over again.

My question is about the correct posture to have while playing. I've done a search online to get the basics, but I still feel that my left wrist is far too bent when I play. Could someone either explain it in their own words or share a link that does a good job explaining it? Does anyone recommend getting a good stool or foot rest?

Even after seven years of playing the guitar I feel nearly like an absolute beginner again asking basic questions. And to be honest, I kind of like it haha.

Thank you very much,

Elijah

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 8 2011 23:09:17

RTC

Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to ecross)

The only thing I can tell you is that you will enjoy the trip down flamenco way. I have been at it for a while, started from scratch. Pay attention to the basics your left hand will cenrtantly get a work out. Do not look for short cuts, form is very important and the Rasgeados take time, practice slowly and focus on form, no need to speed up.
Pay attention to Compas, you will learn to count. I always thought I knew until I started to learn flamenco. A slow bulerias in compas will always sound better that a fast one with out it. Remember that Flamenco is very diferent than just sounding "Spanish".
I am sure some of the more advance players and teachers on this forum will contribute to your specific questions.

Enjoy your learning expirience, Flamenco will become a part of your life.

Suerte!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 9 2011 0:36:43

ecross

Posts: 20
Joined: Jun. 28 2011
From: British Columbia, Canada

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to ecross)

Thank you for your feedback. I was hoping for more than 1 reply in 100 views haha.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2011 1:28:20

rodrigovalt

Posts: 296
Joined: May 1 2011

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to ecross)

Here is a tutorial, his english is not perfect but I think you will be able to understand the main points, play the video from the 9 min on. He explains a little bit about each hand.

Your left hand and arm has to be completely relaxed, try to work on that, there has to be no tension. This way it will be easier to learn the technics and you are not going to injure your tendons.

quote:

Does anyone recommend getting a good stool or foot rest?

Definitely! I used to play most of the times with my right leg crossed over, and once in a while I used the foot rest. But a friend and really good player told me that Paco de Lucia had some back problems a while ago and had to get some injections (I don't know exactly what was it, but he said it was kind of serious).
So probably we are not going to suffer those problems now but who knows in 30 years. Personally I feel more comfortable playing the guitar using the foot rest.

Good luck!

_____________________________

Rodrigo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2011 2:43:43

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to ecross)

It is pretty clear that Paco´s seating excerts an unhealthy strain on the lower back. Not recommendable at all.

Further, sitting is an unpractical position for guitar playing in general.
In the long run you´ll be lucky to not face one or several injuries along the spine and possibly shoulders & arms.

Playing upright is not only the the best ergonomically, but also muscially, as ideal conditions for rhythm demand the whole body to be involved; however subtle yet contributing it be.

However, don´t use straps, as their slippy two-point suspense does introduce contra productive properties.

Best is to imploy something that allows one-point central suspense.
Like a sax harness modified by a flamenco soundhole-hook.
Most practically with the guitars center on hight with the solar plexus. It will make the instrument feel like a part of your body.

In the first days the new moveability will feel strange, and take some getting used to, but you´ll find withn a week how it actually accomodates your playing and enhances accuracy.

You´ll also see what I mean with rhythm support, once everything from feet to head will be allowed to swing along with the playing. Even when hardly visible from outside.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 11 2011 16:55:58

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

Playing upright is not only the the best ergonomically, but also muscially, as ideal conditions for rhythm demand the whole body to be involved; however subtle yet contributing it be.

However, don´t use straps, as their slippy two-point suspense does introduce contra productive properties.

Best is to imploy something that allows one-point central suspense.

Like this?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 14 2011 7:02:50

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Like this?

Thanks for reminding me of Spinal Tap!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 14 2011 7:36:21

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to orsonw)

I wonder why he tunes the violin at 0:53

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 14 2011 10:26:23

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

Like a sax harness modified by a flamenco soundhole-hook.

Does that not dent and scratch the wood around the sound hole very severely?

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 14 2011 19:50:41

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

quote:

Like a sax harness modified by a flamenco soundhole-hook.

Does that not dent and scratch the wood around the sound hole very severely?

Not with felt ends. But anyway those sax harnesses hurt your neck after a while. A normal strap is better. Robert Ruck sent me a metal "S" shape contraption that was rubber and you seat the guitar waiste on the bottom, and the top goes over right shoulder. so you play standing. It was funny how simple and comfortable it worked to play standing.

But to be realistic, I was being sarcastice because to sit and play guitar is not so bad as some folks are making it out to be. The true problem the pro players are having is that while sitting ON STAGE, they can't move even millimeters because of the MIC placement at the sound hole. Moving just a hair changes eq and in ALL cases I have seen (meaning paco vicente, tomatito gerardo, etc etc) the result is feedback. It sucks to have to maintain that postion for two hours every night, and in the end your neck back, legs, arms everything really gets sore.

When I play live I make a point to move my body AROUND The guitar, so that it maintains it place as if fixed to some stand in the ground. It is also awkward and can mess you up at certain points during a show if you feel a need to move while playing, but at least your body doesn't get strained or stiff.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 14 2011 20:15:00

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The true problem the pro players are having is that while sitting ON STAGE, they can't move even millimeters because of the MIC placement at the sound hole.

Thanks a ton for the input, Ricardo. Frankly, I am already predisposed to pain because of issues with my spine, etc., so playing even at home, while I CAN move around is still causing back issues. This happens mostly with sitting cross-legged. This is why I've been playing in the traditional position for the past few months.

However, the guitar is not as steady, and tends to fall. I know Paco Pena and Rafael Cortes do a great job with that, and maybe if I work on it, it'll become doable. The problem is mostly with picado, where I have to raise the elbow and shoulder, and the guitar nearly falls.

I've put in a strap button in the bottom of my guitars (both are relatively cheap ones, so it's not a problem), and I've been playing with a strap around my neck while sitting traditional position style. The strap helps a ton, especially with picado. However, I am afraid to put in a strap button if I were to buy a good flamenco guitar (expensive, and thus afraid the button will decrease its value and make it unsellable in the future, if need be).

Can you show us what this contraption you talked about looks like? (The stand with the S-shaped hook that sits around the waist of the guitar)

Can this be bought from a store?

Your help would be truly appreciated.

Cheers!

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 14 2011 20:46:41

dionysius

Posts: 13
Joined: Sep. 13 2008
From: Eugene, Oregon

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to ecross)

The hardshell guitar case is the most cost-effective foot rest on the market, provided one came with your guitar:)

Sort of related to posture, and it sounds stupid, but one thing to remember when starting out is to remember to breathe. I had no idea I was holding my breath, thus creating tension and causing my crossed leg to fall asleep, until a teacher pointed it out to me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2011 3:32:43

ecross

Posts: 20
Joined: Jun. 28 2011
From: British Columbia, Canada

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to ecross)

Thanks for the feedback guys, you have given me some things to think about.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2011 5:16:04

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to ecross)

You may or may not be into this, but I'd recommend some regular exercises to strengthen your stomach muscles (e.g. sit-ups). In my free-time, when I'm not playing guitar, I work-out at a gym. Strong stomach muscles are important because they help relieve the stress which your upper torso places on your lower back. There are also exercises you can do to strengthen your lower back, but the point is: without reasonably strong stomach muscles (regardless of whether they're visible), your lower back will be doing a disproportionate amount of work supporting your upper body, and that includes when you're sitting, playing guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2011 9:47:20

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to ecross)

according to all these comments I feel like quitting playing guitar because it will probably damage my back soon

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http://www.youtube.com/user/GuitarristaAD

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2011 10:18:14

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to Elie)

quote:

according to all these comments I feel like quitting playing guitar because it will probably damage my back soon

Take up the xylophone instead, Elie. It is the epitome of flamenco.

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2011 10:35:27

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

But anyway those sax harnesses hurt your neck after a while. A normal strap is better. Robert Ruck sent me a metal "S" shape contraption that was rubber and you seat the guitar waiste on the bottom, and the top goes over right shoulder. so you play standing. It was funny how simple and comfortable it worked to play standing.

To avoid strain with a harness you need to position the shoulder rests close to the neck. ( Right on the neck muscles.)
You recommending something as unpractical like common straps over a harness makes me presume that you have not imployed a harness properly yet ( how would you think sax players get along with their much heavier instruments?), nor compared the two means ( straps & harness ) extensively.

However, you must have already partially experienced the benefit of a single point suspense through that S-shaped hook.
If you gave more credit to the harness / soundhole hook assemble to try it out optimally worn and over a couple of days, you might find that it accomodates playing even better than a S-formed suspense, due to its greater flexibility / consequently improving playing conditions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
But to be realistic, I was being sarcastice because to sit and play guitar is not so bad as some folks are making it out to be. The true problem the pro players are having is that while sitting ON STAGE, they can't move even millimeters because of the MIC placement at the sound hole. Moving just a hair changes eq and in ALL cases I have seen (meaning paco vicente, tomatito gerardo, etc etc) the result is feedback. It sucks to have to maintain that postion for two hours every night, and in the end your neck back, legs, arms everything really gets sore.

You might want investigate into typical injuries of musicians. The damages caused to guitar players through playing seated are not limited to those who have to watch for microphones, but occure to the average home practicioner too. And the numbers are not as small as you imply.
Just a quick search on injuries on this very forum could tell you something.

Usual ways of sitting are unhealthy anyway, let alone with the additonal efforts and uneven posture of guitar playing.

Rombsix,

For some unknown reason flamenco neck straps, hence soundhole hooks are hard to be found ( even asking around in the flamenco scene yields little info on corresponding supply ). Thus, the only flamenco neck strap / soundhole hook I found was of mere plastic, without felt.
However, applying it gently has not left any marks, so that I dare to use it also on my best instruments.

A risk that I rather see is a possible lever on delicate tops. Consequently, I do watch out to keep the guitar vertical when under load.

quote:

ORIGINAL: machopicasso

... without reasonably strong stomach muscles (regardless of whether they're visible), your lower back will be doing a disproportionate amount of work supporting your upper body, and that includes when you're sitting, playing guitar.

True to an extend, secondarily, and contradictive in long term concern.

While stomach muscles will help prevent / reduce collapse of inner organs on the one hand; on the other hand the typical inbalance of the muscle apparatus comes along as shortened flexors ( front ) and slack extensors ( back ) of the upper body.
( From there the tendency of idle "forward falling" upper body, resulting in shortened / over strained neck muscles, in an attempt to pull the forward falling head up straight. And its reverse area, in slack / prolonged lower back muscles in opposition to shortened stomach muscles.)

Commonly lacking are strengthened extensors.
So, primarily training the extensors of the back is what helps in general and with concern of sitting strain prohylaxis.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2011 14:07:35

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

For some unknown reason flamenco neck straps, hence soundhole hooks are hard to be found ( even asking around in the flamenco scene yields little info on corresponding supply ). Thus, the only flamenco neck strap / soundhole hook I found was of mere plastic, without felt.

http://acousticguitarstrap.net/classical-guitar-strap.html

Comments?

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2011 14:12:04

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to ecross)

This is what flamencos use.
Already a very useful solution.

However, it still comes with some lateral slippage, leaving you still with a certain amount of active fixing dues while playing ( having to keep the guitar in place, on cost of your free playing ).
- Also its pull on the neck is not nearly as well distributed as the shoulder rest of a harness, when you position those correctly.

The advantage of a harness is that it keeps the hook in place on your central line.

Here a quick drawing I once made.

Ruphus

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2011 14:24:56

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to Ruphus)

So Ruphus, do you sell this contraption of which you provided us with a drawing? Or is there a store somewhere that sells it?

I'd be interested in buying...

Cheers!

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2011 14:33:31

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to ecross)

Rombsix,

I use the sax harness from Neotech, as shown in the picture.
The snap link was removed and replaced by a soundhole hook.

It has shown to be durable and reliable. Even under heavy use, readjusting the straps length becomes necessary only rarely.

If you imploy such a suspence; I recommend to adjust the system so that the upper round of the soundhole will match the hight of your solar plexus.
-

Actually, Neotech offers a dedicated guitar harness too.
Only, that construction works with elastic laces which will clamp the guitar tight, accomodating the concept of fixating the guitar altogether ( I suppose ), which however should not really be ergonomical / supporting optimal playing.

Ruphus

PS:
This is their dedicated harness, which I would not recommend as best choice.

harness.html" style="max-width:800px;" align="absmiddle" border="0">

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2011 15:12:21

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to Ruphus)

I just checked, and there are two sax harnesses from Neotech:

http://neotechstraps.com/soft-harness.html

http://neotechstraps.com/super-harness.html

Did you choose one over the other for a particular reason?

Do they separately sell hooks like the one whose picture I included here?

Cheers!

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2011 15:41:48

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to ecross)

Dunno whether they might sell hooks separately. ( Don´t think so.)

The diffrence between their sax harnesses seems to be that one hangs down from your neck, whilst the other hangs on your shoulders.

I chose the shoulder construction, because:

Having pull on the neck is something to avoid. ( One shouldn´t even put one´s hands behind the neck while doing sit-ups!)
Secondly, strap around the neck will excert push on the carotid artery.
And finally weight distributed over two supense points and over the back will be easier to bear during longer sessions.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2011 15:53:17

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

The snap link was removed and replaced by a soundhole hook.

Dunno whether they might sell hooks separately. ( Don´t think so.)

Then where did you get your sound-hole hook from? Is it lined with felt also?

Gracias!

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2011 16:19:57

Gummy

Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to rombsix)

The hook to the sound hole idea seems awfully risky. There must be a better way, maybe a hook with a Velcro or multiple suction cup attach point?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 15 2011 19:43:49

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

Then where did you get your sound-hole hook from? Is it lined with felt also?

Gracias!

It was attached to a flamenco strap wich I found in a music store in Cologne. Unfortunately, it is of mere plastic with no felt inside.

Gummy,

Flamenco straps / soundhole hooks are often used by flamenco players for their gigs.
I think if this kind of suspension was all to prone to causing damage, we would have heard of it by now.

You only need to keep your guitar vertical, just in the way like you have to be careful to not bang the guitar around, or say not to lean it against a wall in a crowded restaurant etc.
( BTW, indeed, never lean your guitar against walls. Better to either shell out those 15 bucks for a good stand or always put it back into its case [ which again should not be left flat on the ground, but standing on its side]. Just sayin´.)

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2011 11:43:09

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to ecross)

Ramzi,

I just frisked the same store´s online portal for you.

This seems the ideal flamenco strap to strip off the hook from, as it is cheap whereas the hook is explicitely described as of soft plastic:
http://www.musicstore.de/de_DE/EUR/Gitarren/Gurte/Gewa-Schalloch-Tragband-Gurt-50mm-fuer-Klassikgitarre/art-GIT0014630-000

Here is another model with a more lavish strap for who isn´t planning to go after a harness:
http://www.musicstore.de/de_DE/EUR/Gitarren/Gurte/Levys-M20-BLK-Black-Gitarrengurt/art-GIT0010631-000
However, it is not mentioned whether its hook be of soft plastic / covered with felt, or just plain hard plastic.
One can inquire though.

And here is a strap for who dreads the hook. It appears to be a sling that will go around the guitars waiste, and which can be released from the strap at the push of a button.
Looks pretty fine for where quick clip on / off is considered of priority before optimal playing ergonomics.

http://www.musicstore.de/de_DE/EUR/Gitarren/Gurte/Planet-Waves-DGS15-Quick-Release-System-fuer-Akustik-Gitarren/art-GIT0017713-000

Ruphus

PS:
If your guitar is laquered with nitro, be cautious about soft plastic. Nitro can intermix with certain substances like shellack, and as I believe with certain sorts like plastic containing softener ( like with suction cups ).
Chances are relatively small however that your guitar be nitro laquered, as it is not used too often anymore these days.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2011 12:38:59

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to Ruphus)

Thank you Ruphus for taking the time. You're very kind.

I think I like the felt-lined hook whose photo I posted above. If my back is at stake, I would be willing to pay for the whole contraption that said hook is part of, remove the hook, and keep the strap aside. Then I would try to connect the good felt-lined hook to the harness you mentioned. But we'll see about that. Now is not the time for it (maybe if I travel to the USA soon, I'll check that out from there as it will be easier to buy and have it shipped).

About that PlanetWaves "quick-release" thing. I think you misunderstood what it actually is, or I misunderstood you:

You cannot actually use this contraption unless you have a strap-button installed on your guitar, and a normal strap connected to the button. This PlanetWaves gizmo will function as an "extension" of the strap, which will be tied around the guitar's headstock (close to the nut, below the strings) instead of shoe-lace, as is used with most straps. Then, if you were to be playing live, and wanted to REMOVE the guitar and strap, and say, dive into a mosh-pit, you will just push that quick-release thing, and the guitar/strap will come off (instead of having to untie the shoe lace, and look quite uncool when doing so, or try to remove the strap/guitar from over your head, and have it get tangled onto some other gear near/on you at the time - also quite uncool looking).

Was that your initial understanding, or did I actually clarify something with my eloquent wording above?

Thanks again my friend! Cheers to healthy playing!

http://www.westmusic.com/planet-waves-dgs15-quick-release-system-for-guitar-strap.htm

http://www.gdielectronics.com/dgs15.html

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2011 13:38:05

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: A beginner's question about seat... (in reply to ecross)

Hey Ramzi,

You are welcome!

I drew my conclusion just from looking at the PW-strap picture.
Guess I have been wrong.
Thanks for clarifying!

Have fun in the USA, and enjoy shopping; it´s a buyer´s paradise there!

Best,

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 16 2011 14:40:32