Planetary Pegs

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Planetary Pegs

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Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

Planetary Pegs

Is it a bad sign when a planetary peg slips on a brand new guitar?

Aren't these mechanical pegs not supposed to slip and need pushing in etc..? I thought that was the whole point of mechanical pegs. I am just wondering because I tried a guitar with mechanical pegs for the first time and it just seemed....fishy

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2011 15:42:34

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Harry)

Harry,
I have a suspicion that "they're not making them like they used to". I installed my first set 2 years ago when they had the old design with more complicated installation. But they worked like a dream. Now you just install them into a reamed hole which is easier than the old way, but in the last set I put in, one of the pegs had a slight tendency to slip unless you push it in every so often. Not a big problem but it takes a little more finesse than the other 5 for some reason.

The manufacturer told me he's having a sale on the old kind so maybe I will get some

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http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 19 2011 15:52:45

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Harry)

I installed some 4 or 5 years ago.. I cant remember to clearly but it was something to do with a 9mm hole. My personal feeling was that the whole thing was a bit flimsy.

To me using planetary pegs is out of two reasons:
1: your old peghead works badly and is pretty worn out.
2: purely esthetical. IMO Planetary pegs dont offer any of the advantages of either a well fitted, well shaven set of wooden pegs or a good set of machine tuners.

But arent there different manufacturers out there'

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2011 8:04:08

etta

Posts: 342
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Harry)

Disagree with Anders assessment of p. pegs. I have installed three sets on my guitars and they work effortlessly and flawlessly. I suspect that overall they will take little or no maintenance compared to wooden pegs.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2011 15:38:23

Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Harry)

Harry,

Are yours made by PEGHEDS brand? Giving a peg an occasional push is all it takes to maintain proper tension. I suppose it can be considered an inconvenience, but does not really take long or too much effort. Conversely, if the peg is too tight, you can pull on the peg a bit, rotate it a couple of times, and give it a slight push, to set the correct amount of tension.

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Classical-Flamenco-Guitars
tsiorba.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2011 18:21:34

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Harry)

Are your pegheds glued into the headstock hole? Whilst they do have a fine thread on the outside, a little titebond while installing them is recommended so that the fixed portion does not turn in the hole

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 20 2011 21:04:10

alaskaal

Posts: 51
Joined: Jan. 10 2005
From: Chugiak, Alaska

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Harry)

My peg heads require no maintenance. I agree with Anders. When the pegs are fitted properly they require very little getting used to. I have used a drop of Peg Drops in two years on my DeVoe, and on my Alvarez peg head, I haven't done anything to the pegs for the last thirty-five.

These planetary tuners are an approach for those who don't want to learn to tune a properly fitted peg head or have never seen one. My peg heads all tune right up and are spot-on, it takes a little practice is all. How can a planetary peg take less maintenance than a peg? That makes no sense.

Al

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2011 1:41:06

Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to alaskaal)

quote:

ORIGINAL: alaskaal
... How can a planetary peg take less maintenance than a peg? That makes no sense.

Al

Al,

Traditional pegs are a beautiful, simples and the ultimate "minimalist" solution. I like it very much myself. So, in essence, I agree with you, provided the pegs are accurately installed and detailed.

As a luthier, however, I have also found that some players are not comfortable with traditional wooden pegs. Sometimes, it is due to arthritis, or other injuries. Other times, due to general weakness in the wrist and fingers. For those individuals, it is helpful to have a bit of mechanical advantage. Ultimately, though, the least maintenance prone mechanical tuners are the standard tuning machines. The peg, mechanical or not, has a bit of a learning curve. These are my thoughts, based on my observations of players (of varying degrees of ability), commenting and sometimes struggling with the mechanical and traditional pegs.

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Peter Tsiorba
Classical-Flamenco-Guitars
tsiorba.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2011 2:46:14

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Harry)

Wow,

I thought this thread had died a slow death!

I am not sure where to begin here; the issue is simply that I tried out a guitar with planetary pegs and one of the pegs basically unraveled before my eyes once I tuned up. I was surprised because I thought that the advantage of planetary pegs was precisely that they don't slip this way the way wooden pegs can at times.

alaskaal, aren't peg heads another brand of mechanical peg?

Jeff, I am not sure if that peg was glued properly, how else could the entire peg slip that way.

Peter, the brand is planetary pegs and I am surprised that they would require pushing in; I thought mechanical pegs are pretty much like machine heads except they retain the look of pegs

Peter and Anders, this experience has shown me that traditional pegs are probably the way to go for me. I kind of like the idea of maintenance. What did Anders say? Kind of like working on a Harley? Sorry if I am misquoting Anders.

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2011 3:00:50

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Harry)

I once compared a leightweight blanca with wooden pegs to a classical British racing bike. Not the easyest to handle... But gee it vibrates in the whole body.

I have nothing against pegheds exept the name that alway comlicate discussions because they get mixed up with pegheads. (a headstock with pegs)
I will most probably install some within to long. Just to try again. Maybe they have changed or maybe I have changed.

What I said is that IMO they dont offer any real advantage. If you want to tune well, chose machineheads and if you want that string vibration directly into your headstock via a wooden plug (no mechanical thing inbetween) then choose wooden pegs and learn to maintain them with dope.

I´ve made some 20 - 25 guitars with wooden pegs and I love the feel, but I´m also an extremist when it comes to tuning, so I personally prefer machine heads.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2011 8:19:24

Steve Wright

Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Harry)

To make an informed choice over "Wooden Pegheads" and the "PLANETARY PEGS" go to a person who knows. Robert Cauer has written an excellent reply to this problem at http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=8187 . It's quite a lengthy one and explained well. I love the idea of the original peghead, but I don't love the idea of my guitar eventually having serious problems because of my lack of understanding. I would suggest this is a good read - for those of you who like to actually read the instructions before problems arise.

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Be the change you want to see in this world - Gandhi

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2011 12:25:28

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Steve Wright)

quote:

for those of you who like to actually read the instructions before problems arise.

Very few people know of the existence of that magical book called the "user manual." I am referring to life in general, and not just flamenco or guitars.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2011 13:37:21

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Harry)

I made a blanca with the planetary pegs and they worked great. A wee drop of super glue did the trick. I also felt the weight was a benefit too. Nice and light. Pegs I used also had a push and pull effect, where you pulled the peg out a little it was easier to tune and unwound for when I did it too hard. It also helped on instalation as when you pushed in it was very hard to tune.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2011 18:25:56

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Harry)

Anders made a nice little video on pegs a while back, worth checking out for those who haven't seen it. I don't see any advantage of pegheds over machines, the looks don't slay me either. Wooden pegs done right add something to a flamenco that pegheads just don't.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2011 19:46:12

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Sean)

Yes here is the video by Anders for those of you who have not seen it.

http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/2011/02/tuning-peghead.html

Very very useful.

In any case, despite the recommendation for planetary pegs by Robert Cauer in the great article presented by Steve Wright, I am still leaning towards wooden pegs as well.

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2011 20:08:06

etta

Posts: 342
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Harry)

The peghed argument is a no go; if you want wooden pegs, go for it. If they are too difficult to use, just replace them with the mechanical versions later. All the guitars on which I put pegheds were luthier made by some of the best in the business, and I ordered one with pegheds. Pegheds save time when tuning for an audience and offer like their wooden counterparts, very fast string changing in an emergency. A good flamenco guitar will not stand or fall on its tuners.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2011 14:30:51

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to etta)

quote:

ORIGINAL: etta

A good flamenco guitar will not stand or fall on its tuners.

But you might have its head slotted for mechanical tuners, like I will be doing with one of my guitars.

Some posts sound as if pegheads were all the same. However, they can differ like day and night, depending on shape and materials used.
-

Aside of that I´m with Anders; appreciating direct vibes on the head, yet giving priority to easy and precise tuning.

Especially in sight of mechanics like from Klaus Scheller. They outperform all the better gears I´ve tried to date, functioning like with good steel string tuners.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2011 15:18:28

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Harry)

I am building a blanca right now that will have pegheads on them. My client specifically requested them. Having never used them before, I have no opinion about how they work but certainly hope they are_all that_. I should receive them in a few days. When the guitar is done, I will post my impressions, if anyone is interested that is.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2011 23:40:12

RTC

Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to aarongreen)

Aaron:
Your input will be appreciated.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2011 2:47:25

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Harry)

I´m interested.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2011 8:01:36

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Harry)

I think we would all be interested for sure!

One last question, not sure if this was discussed above, but is it possible to substitute planetary pegs with regular wooden pegs? I recognize that most people probably do the opposite, or else convert a headstock with pegs to a machine head headstock (seems a shame).

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2011 4:03:00

Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Harry)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry

... is it possible to substitute planetary pegs with regular wooden pegs? I recognize that most people probably do the opposite, or else convert a headstock with pegs to a machine head headstock (seems a shame).

Harry,

I've installed about 6 or seven sets of planetary-geared pegs, and I can answer with certainty that YES, indeed, it is possible to go back and forth between the traditional and the geared pegs. Geared pegs come in various shaft diameters, and wooden ones can be shaped to any reasonable diameter and taper. Change from one to the other will most likely require minor peg hole modification/adjustment. As a result, the pegs may end-up being slightly thicker than the current peg prior to switch-over.

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Peter Tsiorba
Classical-Flamenco-Guitars
tsiorba.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2011 4:44:45

Steve Wright

Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Peter Tsiorba)

quote:

the pegs may end-up being slightly thicker than the current peg prior to switch-over.

Would this have an affect on how precise the tuning is? I would think a thinner peg gives best accuracy and thicker would be slightly less accurate.

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Rhythm, grace & passion. El ritmo, gracia & la pasión
Be the change you want to see in this world - Gandhi

http://www.youtube.com/user/FusionMusic1000

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2011 11:58:02

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Steve Wright)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Wright

I would think a thinner peg gives best accuracy and thicker would be slightly less accurate.

Unquestionably so.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2011 13:10:36

Steve Wright

Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Ruphus)

That being so then, it would still be possible to engineer the peg so that the winding area of the peg was the same as a standard size peg, hence retaining the accuracy??

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Rhythm, grace & passion. El ritmo, gracia & la pasión
Be the change you want to see in this world - Gandhi

http://www.youtube.com/user/FusionMusic1000

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2011 14:33:41

Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Steve Wright)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Wright

That being so then, it would still be possible to engineer the peg so that the winding area of the peg was the same as a standard size peg, hence retaining the accuracy??

The trouble is that there is no "standard size" wooden peg. Even if there was a set standard, it would only work in a brand new guitar. As decades go by, peg holes will "grow" a little. For that reason, there is a strong logical reason to start out new guitars with thinner pegs. At lest that's what I prefer to do. As the guitar ages, and the pegs/peg holes wear, there will be room to slowly increase the peg size. Have you seen old flamenco guitars, from early 1900's? Most of them have fairly stout pegs, and I can say with near-certainty that those thicker pegs are not original. They are that size because wear and small adjustments over the years necessitated thicker pegs.

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Peter Tsiorba
Classical-Flamenco-Guitars
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2011 17:58:47

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to Peter Tsiorba)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Tsiorba
As the guitar ages, and the pegs/peg holes wear, there will be room to slowly increase the peg size.

Then again you could always install plugs and redrill new peg holes. A fairly simple procedure.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2011 23:29:20

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

Then again you could always install plugs and redrill new peg holes. A fairly simple procedure.

Yes sure, but on really fine old guitar it's not that simple. You can bush the holes in a variety of ways - but you always run up against the issue of how to treat the headstock veneer on an old guitar. (Or new one for that matter.) If the guitar is valuable it warrants some thought so the headstock veneer does not get mangled or otherwise changed too much by drilling out the holes after plugging them.

Some peg replacements are straight forward and others are more like surgery. Depending on the guitar and its value - vintage etc. It's possible that sometimes you may want to remove the headstock veneer and bush the holes under the veneer and replace it. All judgment calls on the part of the restorer - repairer in consultation with the owner. On older guitars sometimes there are ethical questions to consider. I mean if the owner is sensitive at all; some owners act as stewards of rare objects and some don't get that they have a chance (obligation) to preserve something historical.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 25 2011 18:30:26

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Yes sure, but on really fine old guitar it's not that simple. You can bush the holes in a variety of ways - but you always run up against the issue of how to treat the headstock veneer on an old guitar.
Some peg replacements are straight forward and others are more like surgery. Depending on the guitar and its value - vintage etc. It's possible that sometimes you may want to remove the headstock veneer and bush the holes under the veneer and replace it. All judgment calls on the part of the restorer - repairer in consultation with the owner. On older guitars sometimes there are ethical questions to consider. I mean if the owner is sensitive at all; some owners act as stewards of rare objects and some don't get that they have a chance (obligation) to preserve something historical.

You use a Greenlee bit and set the depth on the drill press to stop when it reaches the overlay then after plugging the holes with maple dowel you drill pilot holes from the top surface. Then you turn it over and bore the tapered holes for the pegs from the back. It's not complicated if you use a drill press.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 25 2011 23:28:10

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Planetary Pegs (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

It's not complicated if you use a drill press.

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Please explain to me what a drill press is, I live in the 16th century in Bulgaria. I have no idea what you're talking about and the Star Trek transporter device and time travel episodes have not been invented yet.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 26 2011 0:46:28