Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
  
XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
|
 RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to BarkellWH)
|
|
|
Bill, somebody who makes (alleged) pension ages responsible for the breakdown of a national economy is definitely a rightist person. Flamenco per se has no political message (except few political lyrics maybe), but its followers, especially in the West, could be roughly called as kinda left. Few exceptions prove the rule of course.
Sure you can categorize things. If you cant, it may have more to do with lack of information, than with that it isnt possible. Leftist is someone who thinks the state has to be there to compensate the people in their economic life (min wage, free education, etc). The Rightist is obviously the opposite of that. As for communism and totalitarian state, thats a bit too much 1984-paranoia-newspeak for me. Any half (or quarter) decent educated person will know that communism and the existence of a state contradict each other.
_____________________________
Фламенко
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 20 2011 12:29:34
 |
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to XXX)
|
|
|
quote:
Bill, somebody who makes (alleged) pension ages responsible for the breakdown of a national economy is definitely a rightist person. Flamenco per se has no political message (except few political lyrics maybe), but its followers, especially in the West, could be roughly called as kinda left. Few exceptions prove the rule of course.
Sure you can categorize things. If you cant, it may have more to do with lack of information, than with that it isnt possible. Leftist is someone who thinks the state has to be there to compensate the people in their economic life (min wage, free education, etc). The Rightist is obviously the opposite of that. As for communism and totalitarian state, thats a bit too much 1984-paranoia-newspeak for me. Any half (or quarter) decent educated person will know that communism and the existence of a state contradict each other.
Deniz, you are either wrong or have misinterpreted several things in your post.
A. I never said that the Greeks protesting the raising of the pension age was responsible for the "breakdown of a national economy." What I stated, had you read my post carefully, was that it was one symptom of the Greeks wanting to live beyond their means. And I compared it to the Germans (who are heavily involved in bailing out Greece), who recently had their pension age increased. This is an attempt to analyze an economic crisis, Deniz, and it has nothing to do with being a "leftist" or a "rightist."
B. As for "any half (or quarter) decent educated person," well, all I can say is that any "half (or quarter) decent educated person," will know that communism, as you describe it, is a Marxist pipe dream (the withering away of the state) that never has and, in my opinion, never will exist. What we have seen is communism as it has been implemented in the Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, Maoist China, Cuba, and other places. And it has not been a pretty sight. I have lived in both Bulgaria (two years, 1974-1976) and Chile (three years, 1987-1990). Although both were dictatorships, I'll tell you that people were much more free to pursue their personal lives in Chile than in Bulgaria. Here's one example: In Communist Bulgaria, the only people who could get passports to travel abroad were those who had been vetted by the government. In Chile, anyone could get a passport to travel abroad, without being vetted by the government, except those who the government considered dissidents. I'm not defending Chile under Pinochet, but there is a big difference between those two policies.
C. As for "compensating people in their economic life," you will just have to take my word for it, the Chileans, even the poor, had a higher standard of living by far than the Bulgarians.
Deniz, my advice, for what it's worth, is to stop looking at the world through an ideological lens. It is a much more nuanced world than one of left vs. right.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 20 2011 13:17:36
|
|
XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to BarkellWH)
|
|
|
I tried to make clear that its just your political opinion that the Greeks would "live beyond their means". It indeed is an ideology, because, i think it simplyfies the crisis. The content of what you say gives away your political views, the content of what everybody says gives aways everybody's political views, no matter if one person labels himself this or that.
Reg. Comm, i think we both know that between "implementing" comm. and the east giving up this plan, there was a WAR in which more people died than in WWII. Just to make clear im not defending any states from those you mentioned. But it is not true that people who tried a different system than capitalism were not immediately faced with war from states around them, and it has been like that for the past 150 years of revolutions. Im not here to advertise anything, but lets stay to the facts!
Regarding pipe dream: if every idea that looked promising was given up only because it wasnt possible just right now, then we would have no progress in anything in this world (inventions, theories, anything).
Last point "compensation" and life standard in Bulgaria. Dont you think this is rather a matter of economical MEANS in a country and not political choice? Granted i dont defend Bulgaria or something! Besides, my initial comment was about political directions as they are understood in a capitalistic state. Calling himself a "leftist" in a socialistic state would be a bit funny.
I dont look through a lens, and i dont analyze "the world". It is simply a fact that political views are similar. To me it seems rather unworldly to state that there is nothing that could be called left or right views. People just dont know what the core of these two positions is, because they are LAZY to do political analysis. Doesnt mean it CANT be done though.
_____________________________
Фламенко
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 20 2011 14:12:25
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to chester)
|
|
|
quote:
The way I see it is that art comes from inspiration, and inspiration comes from ideals. I think you'll find that most people who are moved by their ideals to create art tend to be on the 'bleeding heart' end of the political spectrum. The other kind create psuedo political parties that derive their name from beverages made from boiling water.
I would be surprised if most gypsies (flamencos or otherwise) historically considered themselves leftists or rightists. My impression is that most gypsies don't want government (left or right) involved in their lives at all. I am reminded of Ernest Hemingway's reply to a journalist who, thinking Hemingway must be a leftist because he supported the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War, asked him about his political views. Hemingway replied: "All government has ever meant to me is unjust taxation." I may be wrong here, but my impression is that most gypsies think similarly about government: an impediment to their singular way of life.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 20 2011 22:30:20
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to XXX)
|
|
|
quote:
Last point "compensation" and life standard in Bulgaria. Dont you think this is rather a matter of economical MEANS in a country and not political choice?
It definitely was a political choice to organize the economy in such a way that it provided no incentive for people to produce and, thus, created inefficiencies throughout the system. The Bulgarian people, of course, had no say in that choice because it was imposed upon them by the Soviet Union.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 20 2011 22:37:31
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to chester)
|
|
|
quote:
I might be wrong here, but in my mind left and right do not equal pro or con government.
I agree. But let's get back to your original post about flamenco being "leftist" music. I don't think flamencos or any other gypsies care a whit about government or politics, left or right. They are not out to exhibit "bleeding hearts." Neither are they, historically, dedicated to finding, as you put it, "a better way of life." Historically, and perhaps still today, they just want to be left alone to pursue their way of life. I don't think you can call them left or right. Thus, I take issue with your contention that flamenco is "leftist" music.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 21 2011 0:37:05
|
|
Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to BarkellWH)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
They are not out to exhibit "bleeding hearts." Neither are they, historically, dedicated to finding, as you put it, "a better way of life."
Maybe not explicitely, but practically.
The principle Chester pointed to, the seek for progress, aims at considerable conditions for a social being.
From some reports that I noticed, it appears as if gipsy soicialisation was at least partially corrupted these days.
But traditionally they seem to have had a very strong sociology and social life.
With the offspring raised in a firm social surrounding, with high solidarity.
The way I understand it, social value for gipsies has traditionally been priority.
This practically makes a politically left attitude.
Unlike rightist belly-button orientation.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Historically, and perhaps still today, they just want to be left alone to pursue their way of life.
Obviously they do not want to be forced in the exploitation treatmill and shatter of their community.
But if given the chance to maintain their cohabitate, they could be prepared to settle down, go after regular work and pay tax for a municiplaity that respects them.
At least I think to have seen one documentation of such a case.
Whether it be of sense to be pro government / state depends on the preconditions.
For me to consider someone unsocial for his denial of state, its got to be about a state worth the defintion in the first place.
As is however, with the states squeezing tax off the people in each and every step they make ( and supporting private squeezers ), only to then canalize the funds and state properties into the hands of privileged minorities, and let vast of the remains go the same way one other time by ways of inofficiall corruption ...
The circumtsances legitimate everyone who refuses to contribute to and back up government and state.
Provide an authentical state of the people as it should be in the first place, with everything it takes, including fundamental overhaul of educational systems; and let´s see how gipsies could be considering integration into municipalities that would be there for the people.
Ruphus
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 21 2011 10:17:18
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to XXX)
|
|
|
quote:
ill knowledge + just a political statement again. I wonder how you would explain the enourmous differences of income and wealth in capitalism. Or is that what you would call "efficient"...
less sarcastic version: it is one thing to say the system itself is inefficient. It is another to say the system is created deliberately in an inefficient way just for the sake of it. Latter one is a crazy statement and based on nothing but one's political choice. I dont believe that you can imposed a system on a whole country. The king is only king because others/the majority refers to him as king.
You may think I am exhibiting "Ill knowledge + just a political statement again." But, in fact, it is you who are exhibiting "ill knowledge" regarding Bulgaria, and viewing everything through your ideological lens again. The Soviet Union did impose a communist government on Bulgaria, and the people had nothing to say about it. And the "crazy statement" that they created an inefficient system "just for the sake of it," is your own. I certainly did not say that. The communist government in Bulgaria, and those throughout Eastern Europe, imposed command economies on their people (with soviet force backing them), not because they deliberately wanted to create inefficiency, but because they were imprisoned by their ideology. The command economies proved to be very inefficient. I am beginning to think that you, too, are intellectually imprisoned within your ideological framework, Deniz.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 21 2011 14:12:40
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to chester)
|
|
|
quote:
Let's get real - Flamenco is 'leftist' music created by the persecuted underdog.
One last thought on your statement that flamenco is "leftist" music, Chester. In making that statement, you are imposing your own values and ideological framework on flamenco. As I stated earlier, I seriously doubt that flamencos think of themselves as "leftists" or "rightists" or much of anything politically speaking. It is you who view them through your ideological lens. You have taken their music and art and turned it into your own political statement, and in so doing, you are committing a form of cultural imperialism. You are ascribing to flamencos something that they do not ascribe to themselves, and you do it to further your own agenda. In imposing your value system and ideology on flamencos, you are every bit as much a cultural imperialist as any Western "advisor" is who tries to impose Western "values" on other cultures.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 21 2011 14:32:49
|
|
XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to BarkellWH)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
imposed command economies on their people (with soviet force backing them), not because they deliberately wanted to create inefficiency, but because they were imprisoned by their ideology. The command economies proved to be very inefficient. I am beginning to think that you, too, are intellectually imprisoned within your ideological framework, Deniz.
"Imprisoned by their ideology" actually gives away more of your way of thinking then you want to. It is a way of criticizing something without any reasoning. Besides it creates the illusion that people would not deliberately decide things, even if it is a wrong thing. "Prison" implies that people actually want to "get out" of their "ideological prison", although they (the people) say and do exactly accordingly to their "ideology". By that actually you impose your ideas on them. They actually(!) dont want THAT (communism). They want what you want (capitalism). But they dont say or act like that. Strange idea, isnt it?
People decide right or wrong things, but they do it always deliberately.
Please do not even bother to mention that you missed some elections. For one, you dont need an election to give your approval to anything, for two, if the election turned out differently than your expectations, there is a high probability you simply wouldnt accept it. ("ideological prison").
_____________________________
Фламенко
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 21 2011 19:02:54
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to XXX)
|
|
|
quote:
"Prison" implies that people actually want to "get out" of their "ideological prison", although they (the people) say and do exactly accordingly to their "ideology".
Deniz, I suppose you think that 1989 never occurred, that the people of Eastern Europe (Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, and Poland) did not discard communism, that the Berlin Wall never was breached and torn down, and that those people did not want to "get out" of their "ideological prison." Next thing I expect you to say is that all the 1989 news reports of the fall of communism were part of a grand capitalist conspiracy to make the world believe communism fell, and that, in fact, it is alive and well in Eastern Europe, and that everyone in Eastern Europe skips through fields of daisies singing and praising its accomplishments.
I do not know what parallel universe you are living in, but it appears to cause historical amnesia among its inhabitants.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 21 2011 19:32:18
|
|
chester
Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to BarkellWH)
|
|
|
quote:
I agree. But let's get back to your original post about flamenco being "leftist" music. I don't think flamencos or any other gypsies care a whit about government or politics, left or right. They are not out to exhibit "bleeding hearts." Neither are they, historically, dedicated to finding, as you put it, "a better way of life." Historically, and perhaps still today, they just want to be left alone to pursue their way of life. I don't think you can call them left or right. Thus, I take issue with your contention that flamenco is "leftist" music.
Fair enough Bill.
I agree with you that flamenco is not leftist in the same way that let's say Silvio Rodriguez is, and that the gypsies probably don't care about Spain's government as they probably don't feel like they are a part of it. But I still believe that at their core, artists (in general, not only flamenco musicians) lean more towards a tolerant and progressive way of thinking - attributes that I associate with a left-leaning mindset. Another point that I've made earlier is that the gypsies were a persecuted underdog, not part of the ruling class - another thing I associate with being a leftist or at least a non-rightist.
quote:
One last thought on your statement that flamenco is "leftist" music, Chester. In making that statement, you are imposing your own values and ideological framework on flamenco. As I stated earlier, I seriously doubt that flamencos think of themselves as "leftists" or "rightists" or much of anything politically speaking. It is you who view them through your ideological lens. You have taken their music and art and turned it into your own political statement, and in so doing, you are committing a form of cultural imperialism. You are ascribing to flamencos something that they do not ascribe to themselves, and you do it to further your own agenda. In imposing your value system and ideology on flamencos, you are every bit as much a cultural imperialist as any Western "advisor" is who tries to impose Western "values" on other cultures.
I think I'm not being clear enough about how I'm defining Left and Right. This is not about voting Democratic or Republican; the Left is compassionate, tolerant, and strives for social justice and equality while the Right is concerned with exerts the status quo where he maintains his power over the 'common people'.
I guess when I say Right I refer to 'ruling class' and when I say Left I mean 'common folk'. If these are "Western values" that I'm imposing on another culture then be it - I was born and raised in the West and honestly, I think I turned out alright.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 21 2011 19:59:39
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to chester)
|
|
|
quote:
the Left is compassionate, tolerant, and strives for social justice and equality while the Right is concerned with exerts the status quo where he maintains his power over the 'common people'.
Does that mean that Fidel and Raul Castro are Right-wingers? Was Todor Zhivkov in Bulgaria a Right-winger? Were the various Soviet leaders Right-wingers? Or were none of them "concerned with exerting the status quo where he maintains his power over the common people"? It seems to me that your definition of the "Right" would apply to any dictator or oligarchy, or indeed any elected leader, who attempts to "exert the status quo where he maintains his power over the common people." Hugo Chavez in Venezuela and Daniel Ortega in Nicaragua are attempting to maintain their power over the common people as well. Are they "Right-wingers"?
I nevertheless agree with you, Chester, that you were raised in the West, and you indeed seem to have turned out alright. You strike me as a very decent person with solid set of values. I just don't agree with you that the Left is always "compassionate, tolerant, and strives for social justice and equality." I have seen too many historical and contemporary examples of the Left perfectly willing to liquidate their opponents and imprison the common people in order to maintain their power. In this, they are no different than the Right.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 21 2011 23:32:11
|
|
Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to BarkellWH)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
... I suppose you think that 1989 never occurred, that the people of Eastern Europe (Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, and Poland) did not discard communism, that the Berlin Wall never was breached and torn down, and that those people did not want to "get out" of their "ideological prison."
In East Germany the regimes opposition neglected the idea of becoming another capitalist society and at regime´s end was meeting for working out guidelines for an authentic attempt to an actually socialist society.
As reaction the west hysterically fired up everything possible to undermine this democratic movement. Their counter action of that time was described by the press as "laying bananas on the wall".
Lurking with western material baits, distributing 100 DM bills for free, pushing emotional hypocrisy in how the BRD would embrace the eastern brethrens, and promissing "blossoming landscapes". All hollow bubbles, just to make people astray.
Even the Germans in the west fell for the propaganda blurb. ( I won a couple cups of coffee against friends who believed Kohl´s promiss of "blossoming landscapes".)
What followed instead was the exact opposite with the clearing away of east Germany´s properties as the biggest looting in all of Germany´s history.
And after the looting the stocktaking of the former DDR´s declared as total bankrupcy, with the nation forced for "solidarity tax contribution" which is lasting until today, paying for hundreds of billions of dragged away and privatized values in real etstate and plants.
For someone who considers himself no rightist you record things a bit too easily and self-evidently against anything social, while ignoring notorious mafia biz in the same time, Bill.
Besides, I don not see Chavez supporting his country men´s poverty for to sit himself in giant haziendas, as typical action with maintaining power over people.
But I know that the system that you have been actively supporting has executed diverse assasination trials against Chavez.
"Not right, not left" puts yourself a tad too much into neutral zone.
Ruphus
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 22 2011 7:49:10
|
|
XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to BarkellWH)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Deniz, I suppose you think that 1989 never occurred, that the people of Eastern Europe (Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, and Poland) did not discard communism, that the Berlin Wall never was breached and torn down, and that those people did not want to "get out" of their "ideological prison." Next thing I expect you to say is that all the 1989 news reports of the fall of communism were part of a grand capitalist conspiracy to make the world believe communism fell, and that, in fact, it is alive and well in Eastern Europe, and that everyone in Eastern Europe skips through fields of daisies singing and praising its accomplishments.
I do not know what parallel universe you are living in, but it appears to cause historical amnesia among its inhabitants.
Crazy accusations, even contradict my earlier posts. You know me better than i do. And you seem to know my political view also although i havent mentioned anything from it here. Only thing i did was to correct wrong ideas in this thread, not stating my own ideas. Im pretty neutral to the soviet union. But you seem trained in fighting ghosts. You political view seems more based on anti-communistic emotions, rather than really educated political opinion. I fully reject anything you wrote about me, if you cared to understand it rather than to show off your disregard about the SU and spreading out accusations. Thats just poor style anyway, regardless of what political view someone has. A sign of having no arguments.
The fact that you cant even distinguish between your creation of "ideological prison" and a prison in a literal sense, should really bother you.
_____________________________
Фламенко
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 22 2011 15:10:41
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to Ruphus)
|
|
|
quote:
"Not right, not left" puts yourself a tad too much into neutral zone.
I wouldn't say "neutral zone," Ruphus. I tend to be conservative (not Right-wing, but conservative--there is a difference). What I try to do is be equally critical of Left-wing regimes and Right-wing regimes. The sense I get, though, is that people on the Left tend to apologize for and downplay Left-wing regimes/dictatorships while saving all their criticism for Right-wing regimes/dictatorships. Such an approach strikes me as inconsistent and hypocritical.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 22 2011 15:33:54
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to XXX)
|
|
|
quote:
"Imprisoned by their ideology" actually gives away more of your way of thinking then you want to. It is a way of criticizing something without any reasoning. Besides it creates the illusion that people would not deliberately decide things, even if it is a wrong thing. "Prison" implies that people actually want to "get out" of their "ideological prison", although they (the people) say and do exactly accordingly to their "ideology". By that actually you impose your ideas on them. They actually(!) dont want THAT (communism). They want what you want (capitalism). But they dont say or act like that. Strange idea, isnt it?
I simply followed the logic in your above-cited post.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 22 2011 15:38:27
|
|
Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
|
|
RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to BarkellWH)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
"Not right, not left" puts yourself a tad too much into neutral zone.
I wouldn't say "neutral zone," Ruphus. I tend to be conservative (not Right-wing, but conservative--there is a difference). What I try to do is be equally critical of Left-wing regimes and Right-wing regimes. The sense I get, though, is that people on the Left tend to apologize for and downplay Left-wing regimes/dictatorships while saving all their criticism for Right-wing regimes/dictatorships. Such an approach strikes me as inconsistent and hypocritical.
Cheers,
Bill
Which might be correct in respect of some cases ( like when the left naively supported the Pol-Pot regime, or fell for the Eastern block as "socialist" ) and wrong in many other cases.
The Cold War and its heritage still in the works today, after all was of a distorting demagogy propaganda like no other to date.
For an example: The distortion about Albania ( where I lived for a while in the early seventies ). A country that stood for maybe the most upright trial to socialism in modern history ( though I expect todays situation in Bolivia to be quite sincere as well ). Sincere and incorruptable enough to break first with the SU and later with the Chinese, for their betrayal on the socialist ideal; eventhough the Albanians - boykottet by their neighbours and the west - could well use the big power´s support and trade.
I don´t think that there has been another case in modern history where income and property was as evenly distributed among people like there. Lesser even any other example of serious prophylaxis against nepotism and corruption like there. Leading staff there had to be very cautious with misuse of their positions against subordinates. No autocratism in place like everywhere else ( including common circumstances in the west!)
And what was reported in the west? "Stone age socialism", despotism and bondage of the worst kind, naturally.
And prism camps, naturally.
After an according campaigne of the "Stern" ( a German boulevard magazine ), the Albanians officially envited the Stern´s editorial to visit the country on cost of the hosts and show where the prison camps werer supposed to be that a Stern journalist had reported on. Naturally, no response was received, neither the invitation ever published to western readers.
Instead the distortion went on later with painting Enver Hoxha ( statesman ) as pederast who´d pick out children to his pleasure and kill them afterwards.
This is the quality all left social attempts have been painted to western common sense by the media, traditionally. From there no wonder that the western left as a reaction will have eyed the Eastern Block too naively.
-
But where are you, Bill, the conservatives, when it is about daily arbitrayness and autocratism in the oh so free world of capitalism?
Where is your magnifying glass and protest when a German chancellor Kohl destroys official files for to smudge his illegal traces?
Where is your critical eye when a syndicate during one of their countless civil engineering / real estate coups on state´s property chops down century old trees and wracks historical buildings in Stuttgart to make accomplished facts before a protesting municipality could lead to official inspection and a halt?
Where is your focus when a consortium incorporates German highways like right now?
After experts have all stated that a lease out and privatisation would cost much more tax money than usual states conduct, the parliamental mafia has put the drawings and contracts with the consortium under classification, hence allowing access only to parliamentarians who then have to sign a commitment to not pass on infromation.
So, instead of functioning as people´s representative and advocate, the legislative one other time hamstrings people´s interest and executes private bargain while veiling crafty projects by misuse of official means.
...
Or say after Iraq was under US control, when very first thing that happened was that Bush´s and Rice´s surrounding loaded some 4 billion $ worth of mineral oil for free ...
How the hell do conservatives under plead of democratic intention propagate preservation of daily procedures of scoffing democracy, of duping networks, appropriation and arbitraryness before a "democratic" public; calling reign of mafia "freedom" while painting social concepts of equal rights as bondage from the get go? Bondage of whom?
One of the most common defaults of the neocon propaganda in sight of the Eastern Block used to be how travelling restrictions meant bondage.
However, freedom is bound too much more essential aspects than free travelling.
Like having a state and government that would be there to warship people´s rights and interests. Protecting them from exploitation, usury, routined scamming, betrayal, arbitrariness and autocracy.
How free do you feel in the USA when earning a couple of misere bucks per hour while charged silly 30 grands for mere treatment of a broken arm, or even hundreds of thousands of USD once sick and presribed blood cleansing or artificial respiration?
Things out of plummet? Hypocrisy? Let´s talk about it.
Ruphus
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 23 2011 12:16:57
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.140625 secs.
|
Printable Version
