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What can happen if you overdo it...
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John O.
Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany
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 What can happen if you overdo it...
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...somehow on topic, as I know flamencos tend to overdo it  I need to rant about this right now, no better place than here, I guess.
So the (very basic and simple) weight training I did to compensate for my bad back together with guitar playing did quite a bit of damage. I've had this sh*t for about three months now and, although much better than at the beginning, it's still with me on a daily basis.
Tennis arm, both arms, inner and outer side, according to the doctor not dangerous, but very painful. The more I play, the more pain I have the next day. I never have to play with pain, thank god. I took four weeks off and it completely went away, started playing again and it creeped back, not nearly as bad, though. By now my left arm can handle me playing the whole day, the right outer elbow is still causing problems, but any physical therapy I do for my shoulders makes both arms burn like hell from the shoulder through the biceps down to the wrists for up to 3 days after.
Guitar playing is now my only income, so I can't really afford another break. I haven't practiced a minute this past month (though I can still play just as always) and am just going from rehearsal to rehearsal and show, playing as little as possible, constantly paranoid about what I'm doing to myself, been having a lot of anxiety and depression. The orthopedist I was at told me not to worry, I'll just have to "juggle" with playing and breaks until it's gone, which can take 1-2 years. It's only pain, there's no damage involved.
Next month the schools are closed for 6 weeks, 2 of those I'm on vacation and I won't be playing at all, hopefully it'll get even better. Tomorrow I'll be trying acupuncture.
This can happen to anyone and it sneaks up on you without warning, I've talked to so many guitarists by now who have had something similar, dancers too (from palmas or castañuelas). Stretch before you play, focus on good posture and gentle ways to build up muscle strength to prevent tendon strain. These are all things I did wrong and now I'm stuck with this crap...
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Date Jun. 14 2011 7:51:47
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rombsix
Posts: 7807
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon
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RE: What can happen if you overdo it... (in reply to John O.)
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quote:
This can happen to anyone and it sneaks up on you without warning, I've talked to so many guitarists by now who have had something similar, dancers too (from palmas or castañuelas). Stretch before you play, focus on good posture and gentle ways to build up muscle strength to prevent tendon strain. These are all things I did wrong and now I'm stuck with this crap...
I'm sorry to hear that John. Thanks for the valuable and heart-felt advice. I have my share of aches and pains, and something new seems to pop up every once in a while, even though I'm only 26. I can't practice nearly as much as I want to (because of studies too) due to wrist pain, right arm numbness/burning (mouse over-use), and back pain (improved with traditional sitting position and moderate weight training, but I can't play well in the traditional position). I guess being a musician, let alone, a guitarist, has its share of occupational problems not to be undermined. Vicente had to lay flat on his back for a good deal of time due to disc problems. He's lucky he recovered with surgery. Hopefully we won't get to such levels of injury.
Stay healthy!
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Ramzi
http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
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Date Jun. 14 2011 8:48:57
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John O.
Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany
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RE: What can happen if you overdo it... (in reply to machopicasso)
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Danke!
Yeah, I read starting at the age of 35 the blood flow through your tendons and therewith your ability to heal them goes back a lot, which is why it's the average age for such problems.
I really only did the most basic exercizes, didn't do free-weights. Chest press, seated row, reverse butterfly, lat pulldown. 3x15 twice a week. However all these machines strain the same shoulder muscles stressed while playing, and that's what I think caused the problem. It otherwise wouldn't make sense that I have the same problem in both arms, though the right side is taking much longer to heal than the left.
I do remember making a post about this here before and taking the weight down considerably. Confusing is that pain can come 1-2 days later and never during the actual strain - at times it felt like the weights were helping my shoulders. Knowing I had back problems already, I couldn't tell if holding the guitar was causing the shoulder pain and the weights were helping. Apperantly both were hurting. It went from a tiny little annoying pain to a horrible unbearable pain within less than a week and it was too late.
Weightlifters often get tennis arm too and train it away with little bells for the forearm muscles. Problem is, once it gets as bad as mine you can't train the muscles without your nerves going crazy.
There are really bad tennis arm cases where the patient can't move the arm at all in the morning and has to apply a hot water bottle to the arm and manually stretch it out. That's why the orthopedist kind of laughed my problem off. I'm fully flexible at all times and have all my strength, it's only pain. Very bad pain, though.
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Date Jun. 14 2011 11:25:18
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: What can happen if you overdo it... (in reply to John O.)
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Problems like that are common in many professions / regular executions.
Typical for the conditons in our civilisations are one-sided applications, especially one-sided engagement of the upper bodys and arms flexors.
It leads to replacement of muscle tissue through tendon at the muscle ends, hence shortening of the functional muscle and losening of its antagonists. An imbalance that over time will also affect joints.
Modern medicine in this realm seems to only slowly grasp cause and well-directed measures. Still, for a great part relying on passive and symptomatic treatment methods ( massage, salves, cooling / warming, injections and surgery aimed at symptoms instead of at muscular cause).
A pity, seeing how fast and without side effects causal measures work.
In all the years since I have been helping people with muscular problems by methods tought in WT, there have been only two or three cases whom I couldn´t help. These having been unattentive / dismissing recipients in the same time, however.
All the others recovered so fast, even when about long-term established and painful issues, that they could hardly believe the results themselves. Some even had announced or scheduled carpal tunnel operations, that could be cancelled then.
Almost all of them after a shot while even forgot the individually prescribed exercises altogether, which I wouldn´t really approve, as they were intended as steady execution.
Anyway, related muscle-prolonging isometric exercises yield surprisingly fast developing new muscle cells at required spots, bringing neck, shoulder and / or arms apparatus back to balance in only a few weeks, with relief being experienced right away.
What guitar playing is concerned, sitting position makes for the least suiting posture anyway.
I had already written a long post on the foro about playing up-right by use of a special harness, which however was accidentally deleted by moderator.
Not only does it prevent typical guitarist injuries on big limbs and back, but a freely one-point suspended guitar also does contribute to significantly better playing conditions, technically as well as in terms of rhythm sensed and supported by the whole body.
Thus, I am convinced that we will be seeing even the classical fraction playing upright sometime in the future.
Could also be that there be more builds around like Kenny Hill´s Stand Up guitar, as it faciliates ergonomy one more time.
Ruphus
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Date Jun. 14 2011 11:43:46
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John O.
Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany
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RE: What can happen if you overdo it... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
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quote:
Have you considered a gluten-free diet or other dietary changes to assist in recovery?
Lots of vitamin B, most important B12. I tried acidic free - that didn't help. I tried calmus oil - stinks like terpentine - I think it helped a little.
Taichi sounds good, I thought about yoga, too. Michio, a great flamenco guitarist, had this for a half a year and after 2-3 acupuncture visits it was completely gone. I'm trying it tomorrow for the first time, wish me luck!
I think I'll continue to live as a musician and get through this. I have a really heavy schedule this month and can't notice the pain getting worse, it's only unbearable after doing physiotherapy. Looking over the past couple months I'm slowly improving.
Deniz, knowing what I do now I would do it all differently. Like I wrote before, I don't practice scales anymore and now my runs are BETTER now that I spend all my time just playing. This goes for all the other techniques, too.
This also goes hand in hand with worrying about how good or bad you are. Let the experience come naturally and relax. Don't spend too much time fighting your own body - when you struggle too much trying to improve technique this is pretty much what you're doing. I wish I'd known this before. Now the obsession and the stress of getting better are gone and suprise - I can still play.
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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
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Date Jun. 14 2011 13:21:37
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: What can happen if you overdo it... (in reply to John O.)
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When I was playing for classes 10 hours a week plus doing gigs, I developed a problem with my strumming hand. I did acupuncture only once, and took a few weeks off. It worked.
I've had back problems for thirty years-ruptured a disk when I was 21, and that has been tough at times. I'd tend to practice for two-three hours without getting up, and then when I did, oh boy was I in trouble. Barely stand up. I played a lot with bad posture, and that was a lot of the problem.
These days I don't play much, and I have to confess, that not having a gig, or any pressure to play has been a relief as far as back issues. I had to cancel a gig here and there over the years because I simply could not stand up much less get an amp to a gig and play for three hours.
There's no doubt that sitting in a chair playing for hours over the years can contribute to serious health issues if you don't take the time to stretch, to rest, and keep your general health in order.
Best of luck to you John.
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Date Jun. 14 2011 22:28:07
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: What can happen if you overdo it... (in reply to John O.)
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Stress should help your wrists, provided it being the right one / precisely appropriate exercise needed.
Seeing you guys talking about accupuncture ... and thinking too of the docs in my family who bowed to it ...
What would you say if physicists in China were ridiculing accupuncture? Having dismissed it long ago as hocuspocus, only held available for western pilgrims?
And what if you heard of that George Soulié de Morant who "brought" this practise to Europe, was a sharlatan?
A guy who claimed to have healed patients of a cholera epidemy in 1901, whilst there was no such epidemy.
A guy who likely never saw any accupuncture session during his ten years in China, as the treatment was forbidden since 1822.
Who must have started his AP trip back in France, and for lack of details invented the "Meridian" and "Energy" on which todays AP is based on.
In trad. Chinese medicine "jinglou" is supposed a vessel system through which blood and Qi are to flow.
Morant however interpreted the flow as immaterial energy, which yet made the theory acceptabe to westerners who naturally new that blood flows a completely other way than the arbitrary branch drawing of jinglou.
The traditional Chinese medicine was not taken for serious in China anymore since the 19th century.
Yet, when western AP friends pilgrimed China in the mid seventies of past century the Chinese realized that they better don´t point out the voodoo, as it after all brought in foreign currency.
In Germany health insurances had prematurely accpeted AP ( just like other esotherics like homoeopathy ). Last year however a nation-wide survey revealed one other time that there cannot be traced any healing effect with AP, which finally led to the dicision to no longer finance it either.
Placebo effects are just as valuable as any help, but you better don´t rely on them when there exists conclusive alternative.
What has been described here and in the other thread, as a muscular issue can be treated very efficiently and fast.
Just make sure to get on the causal path instead of on the symptomatic one, with the latter unfortunately still being routine with vast of modern medicine in the muscular realm.
Ruphus
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Date Jun. 15 2011 13:17:08
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