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Join The Greek Revolution
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malakka
Posts: 170
Joined: Jan. 14 2009
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 RE: Join The Greek Revolution (in reply to gounaro)
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Protesters belonging to the left-wing The All-Workers Militant Front (PAME) union unfolded a giant banner from the roof of the finance ministry building on the central Syntagma square, calling for a nationwide strike against the new austerity measures that the government agreed to take in return for the new bailout package.
"From dawn today forces of PAME have symbolically occupied the finance ministry, calling on workers to rise, organize their struggle and prevent the government's barbarous and anti-popular measures from passing," the front said, AFP reported.
Angry citizens in the country have now, for a tenth consecutive day, held anti-government demonstrations against the austerity measures.
Protesters have set up a camp in the central square of the capital, in a move modeled after the Spanish M-15 movement and the uprisings in the Middle East and North Africa.
The new bailout plan will mean harsher austerity measures, as it is aimed at reducing the 2011 budget deficit by EUR 6.5 billion. PAME said the new plan would “turn workers into slaves.”
The plan, however, is set to be approved by EU finance ministers on June 20. Additionally, the government will also commence its EUR 50 billion privatization program.
Greece received a EUR 110 billion EU-IMF bailout loan last year, as it faced a massive debt crisis, but did not manage to resolve its financial problems.
Since last year, Greece has witnessed massive anti-government protests which turned violent at times and left scores of protesters and security forces dead or injured.
A poll conducted recently found that the majority of Greeks no longer have confidence their government can pull the country out of its national debt.
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Date Jun. 3 2011 23:31:37
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Join The Greek Revolution (in reply to malakka)
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quote:
A poll conducted recently found that the majority of Greeks no longer have confidence their government can pull the country out of its national debt.
It is interesting that the majority of Greeks no longer have confidence their government can pull the country out of its national debt, because the majority of Greeks are the primary reason the government will be unable to rationally bring their economy and financial situation under control. While Germany, which is the primary engine of the bailout of the Greek economy, has raised its full retirement age to 67, the Greeks hold violent demonstrations when their government proposes raising the age of full retirement from 61 to 63 years of age. For years, the Greeks have lived way beyond their means.
The Greek melodrama reminds me of a joke the Chileans told about the Argentines during the Argentine financial crisis during the 1980s. This is a Chilean joke, and it went like this: "The Argentines all think they are living in a five-star hotel, and they are all calling for room service at the same time." Another Chilean joke was: "There are two possible solutions to the Argentine financial crisis: one technical and the other miraculous. The technical solution is the Virgin Mary descends from heaven with a bag full of $87 million, the Argentines pay off their debts and start over. The miraculous solution is the Argentines work harder."
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 4 2011 1:46:36
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Join The Greek Revolution (in reply to gounaro)
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Alatriste,
Why do you think that people could never learn from past abducted revolutions; and do you care to investigate about current tendency for to estimate how the near future might be looking like if everything remained at what it is?
Bill,
Your interpretation is along the view and defalcation of the profitting caste.
There exists no lack of contributed labour and office time in this world. And there exists abslotelely no need for to keep elderly in the treatmills, - other than eventually benefitting from their working experience.
Not even demographics could be serving for a reason, as the answer to demographic conditions in industrial countries would be family support and educational reform, or immigration if must be.
However, yet even the latter ( immigration policies for qualified personel ) shows to be widely underhung projection.
Like in Germany where the industry is conducting a complain campaign, according to which there was a lack of qualified personal, which is a falsification of circumstances. For factually pretty much all qualified staff being present already inland, as unemployed host.
Truth being: The industry wanting to way for even lower wages through employ of special and academic staff from underdeveloped and semi-industrialized countries.
It is cynical to request rise of working time in technological times that would actually allow significant decrease of labour and encrease spare time and cultural / educational development, if only production and organizing technology was engaged to people´s demand.
The issue is not lack of labour, but out-of-hand draining off from production.
Meanwhile, the share of manufacturing has dropped down to 20%, while former service industry share of once 20% has risen to 60%.
How much sucking off can you wedge between product and consumer until an inflated economy cycle construct collides?
And how much has there to be sliced off from nation´s 20% labour production to provide affluent seizure to none-productive segments, rake in high enough to aside entertain a service industry which occupies 60% of pecuniary "generate"?
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The poor Greeks. Now they will be seeing the mega bargain for privatiers who will be "buying" off the national infra structure and plants for near nothing, only for to come back and squezze the living sh!t out of the consumer.
Among the vultures the very same banks who threaded in the bubble and instead of writing off, are being cushioned now through the servant EU, so that they can not only keep on as before but one other time skim in the Greek carrion, served on the usual silver tablet.
Even their ports will be owned by foreign combines, leaving the Greeks dependend and bystander in their own country.
I can´t believe the slick deals I am seeing these days.
Had they representation, they would now leave the currency union, return to the drachma, serve as cheap tourist and shopping paradise to their European neighbours for some 10 or 15 years or so, and in the end return to grow.
But as is, Greece will be just sold out.
Ruphus
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Date Jun. 4 2011 13:22:11
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Join The Greek Revolution (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
Your interpretation is along the view and defalcation of the profitting caste.
Ruphus,
Not so. My view is entirely neutral and is supported by economic history. I lived and worked in Chile in the 1980s, and I assure you that the Chilean jokes I recounted had a basis in fact. Argentina had, in fact, been experiencing extreme inflation and was unable to make payments on its international debt. The inflation was caused by the government providing the population with goods and services it could not afford, in part because the Argentine government only collected about 40% of the income tax that should have been collected by the population. Argentines have traditionally considered it a national sport to avoid paying taxes. Yet, they expected full government services to be provided. The inevitable result was the government had to print money. Thus, inflation.
This is elementary economics, Ruphus. It has nothing to do with Capitalism vs. Marxism. It has nothing to do with international conspiracies and cabals. It has nothing to do with international banks and the International Monetary Fund. No one forced Argentina to live beyond its means to the point where it had to resort to the IMF and belt-tightening measures. It is the same with Greece. The Greek population demanded (and apparently continues to demand) that the Greek government provide goods and services (including early retirement), that it cannot afford. Greece, like Argentina, has lived way beyond its means. It is now time to pay the piper, and the Greek population does not like it.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 4 2011 13:45:13
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Join The Greek Revolution (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
Capitalism and Marxism are both nothing but theories on (how to build an) economy. With the difference that Capitalism not just theory but also reality, bringing the people health and wealth all over the world as we can see...
The average retirement age in Germany is 63 and in Greece 62 or so. Even if it would be like 67 and 60 in Greece, i dont think it would make a big difference economically for the country as a whole. Its more the productivity of the 18-60 year old people that is deciding. Thats simple math by the way.
Marxism was a reality, too, Deniz. In its various forms, from the old Soviet Union, to Maoist China, to present day Cuba, it was (and in the case of Cuba, is) a reality that failed.
In any case, the iron laws of economics operate the same, whether within a Capitalist, Socialist, or Communist system. If a government spends more on goods and services than it takes in in tax revenue, it will either live beyond its means and have to borrow or go broke, or it will print money and create inflation. This was the case in Argentina and is now the case in Greece.
You are correct that productivity is a factor, but in Greece's case (as in Argentina's case) even greater productivity would not be enough to balance the years of profligate spending.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 4 2011 14:48:20
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Alatriste
Posts: 91
Joined: Dec. 23 2009
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RE: Join The Greek Revolution (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
Alatriste,
Why do you think that people could never learn from past abducted revolutions; and do you care to investigate about current tendency for to estimate how the near future might be looking like if everything remained at what it is?
Okay, now for some reasonable dialog. Your question is good. The answer is elusive and quite frankly I don't know the answer. Who of us does? I started wondering this myself decades ago. The only partial answer I could find was in the work I cited by Camus, but even in his work there are flaws. Most of the major revolutions have been betrayed. I would say the notable exceptions are the French Revolution and the American Revolution. Revolutions, even with the best of intentions, simply betray themselves once the transfer of power is made from Group A to Group B. The regicide revolutions tend to have proven this with the exception of the aforementioned by Camus. The betrayal is perhaps due to the nature of man in that he has the tendency to want to command others and to lord over them. Many will follow the potential lord/dicatator/king/charlatan if it means getting a bigger piece of someone else's pie for themselves. Others will always be in rebellion and are often supported by populists simply because they are not part of the current "establishment." Take the Iran example, Western Europe loved the exile Khomeini living in Paris. Out with the Shah! Look at the results. Again same with Cuba, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia. Take a look for example at the agricultural industry in Angola before and after their 30 years of war for independence and civil revolution. They had a coffee industry that rivaled that of Brazil and Colombia. Now they grow nothing and even have to import food for the major cities and grow subsistence out in the country. A few at the top get the oil and diamond money.
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Date Jun. 4 2011 16:18:21
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marrow3
Posts: 166
Joined: Mar. 1 2009
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RE: Join The Greek Revolution (in reply to Alatriste)
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Revolutions make progress only when people put in the hard work, before and after, to find better ways of doing things. A reiterative process at best.
The following is from from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2%80%932011_Greek_protests
quote:
May 2011 (The "Indignant Citizens Movement")
Demonstrators in the plaza in front of the Greek parliament, May 25.
As of May 25, 2011, there is a peaceful demonstration in Athens and other major cities, protesting the new austerity measures proposed by the goverment, in the same spirit as the 2011 Spanish protests.[47][48][49] The demonstrations span across most major greek cities, including Athens, Thessaloniki, Larissa, Patras, Volos, Rethymno, Tripoli and Kalamata, some of Greece's largest cities.[50][51][52] The demonstration in Athens is coordinated by the Facebook page "Αγανακτισμένοι Στο Σύνταγμα" (Indignants at Syntagma).[53] Currently, it is reported that over 90,000 people have registered at the page,[54] and thousands (reportedly over 30,000)[48] have gathered outside the Greek Parliament in Syntagma square.[55][56] The demonstration in Greece's second-largest city, Thessaloniki, is co-ordinated by the facebook page "Αγανακτισμένοι στον Λευκό Πύργο" (Indignants at the White Tower), and over 35,000 people have said they would 'attend' the protest.[57] Some of the most popular slogans at the May 25 protest were:
• Error 404, Democracy was not found.
• I vote, You vote, He votes, She votes, We vote, You vote, They steal.
• Greece your turn has come, you have to stop burying your children.[58]
• Oust! (Greek interjection of a negative nature, meaning "leave")
• The maid resisted. What do we do? (Reference to an alleged sex scandal involving former IMF director Dominique Strauss-Kahn)[49]
This series of demonstrations differed from almost all other demonstrations in Greece's metapolitefsi era (1975-present) in that it was a protest organized by the people without any political or trade union affiliation.[49] Demonstrators who expressed affiliation to any political party during the demonstrations were condemned by the majority of the demonstrators, as the organizers claimed that there is no room for political affiliations and violence in these demonstrations.[50] The focus of the protesters was mostly against the government and the current driving forces of Greek politics, as well as the International Monetary Fund.[49] As a responce to the Spanish slogan "Be quiet, the Greeks are sleeping" (which was allegedly heard at the 2011 Spanish protests),[59] a big banner was raised in front of the Spanish embassy in Athens reading "¡Estamos despiertos! ¿Que hora es? ¡Ya es hora de que se vayan!" (We've woken up! What time is it? Its time they left!).[49][60] There was also a strong sense of disapproval for the Prime Minister of Greece, George Papandreou, and the vice-president of the government, Theodoros Pangalos.[49][61]
…
On May 27, the proceedings of the first people's assembly on Syntagma Square were published by the Real Democracy Now! movement. Among them:[72]
• Any wrong-doing politician should either be sent home or to jail.
• When we, the people, start discussions without fear, fear grasps them, inside the parliament building.
• This is not just the politician's fault. Its all our faults, with our selfish attitudes.
• Demonstrations should take place every evening at 6pm and an [[Popular assembly|assembly] at 9pm.
• Their democracy guarantees neither Justice nor Equality.
• The taxation system is not the same for the rich and the poor. Equal rights for everyone.
…
Some of the demands that the Real Democracy Now! movement has formulated during the [[Popular assembly|assemblies] at syntagma Square include:[84]
• Adoption of a new constitution, written by the people and not the members of parliament
• Refusal to pay debt that is odious
• Cancellation of the memorandum signed between Greece and the IMF
• Harder taxation on the rich, and others.
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Date Jun. 4 2011 22:24:28
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Join The Greek Revolution (in reply to elgreco)
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quote:
I think to claim that Greeks are lazy is a racist assertions and totally unbased in facts.
You make some interesting points, elgreco, but I don't know who you think is claiming that Greeks are lazy. I certainly have not claimed that Greeks are lazy. I stated that the majority of Greeks protested the potential raising of the retirement age, and that the Greek government has provided goods and services that far exceed its ability to pay for them. I stated that I thought that even a rise in productivity would not be enough to counter years of profligate spending. Perhaps you refer to my reference to the analogous situation that prevailed in Argentina in the 1980s, and my recounting of the Chilean jokes about the Argentine handling of the crisis. I mentioned the jokes to demonstrate how Chileans thought about the Argentines and their failure to bring spending into equilibrium with revenue. The same spending/revenue situation prevails today in Greece. Nevertheless, I have never, in this thread or anywhere else, suggested that Greeks are lazy.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 4 2011 23:13:02
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Join The Greek Revolution (in reply to gounaro)
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Hi Bill,
The economic castel in the air in Greece was for a good part financed by foreign private banks like Deutsche Bank ( just like in Irland, Spain, Portugal, you name it ), who for some reason never need to write off their risk capital, as the EU appears to back them up and thread in for secondary rake.
Not fitting a nice and just pink world to avail. So, lowly circumstances can only be conspiracy.
Deniz,
Unless I missed out on something, Marx theories don´t contain suggestions, but analyze given economy named capitalism, which again is following a votiv of capital as indicated in the title, instead of humane and practical marketing.
Alatriste,
What we can tell is that everyone in the west has been filled in from ground up with the claim that social revolutions had to be failing.
Such parol implies that a society and state of the people was to be a practical impossibility, which is of the most contradictive and misleading statements possible. It´s like insinuating that fish couldn´t live in open waters, but exclusively in reservoirs.
Further, what the same common source withholds is the fact of foreign operations of sabotage and boycott that each and every approach to people´s state received internationally. These contributed largely to economical stagnation ( hampered progress of civil production and light industry ) and inner repressive measures, including provided justification to keep "strong hands" in leading positions.
There has been no people´s revolution which would had been allowed to freely develop economically and become stable enough for to develop measures against corruption, like introducing rotation of organizing and political positions. No to mention think tanks for how to enable incorruptable count of vote, which besides would certainly be desirable globally.
The past examples of dried out revolutions are in no way congruent background for to advocat conservation of given irrationality; especially not whilst 5 before noon on the way to ecological break down.
Marrow,
Thanks for the info; very interesting requests!
Encouraging to see the awareness there. Light years from what you could expect from any considerably sized crowd in Germany.
We might be seeing similar tendency of awakening in the USA soon, which are factually bankrupt since the early eighties of last century already and will probably not be able anymore to push compensational and transferring / spreading tactics like until now.
Though hard to imagine today, America actually used to have quite a rooted movement once. I don´t know if the long sleeping beauty could come back to life as was, but even if there be no Guthries anymore, with trash and shortage now arriving right at Joe Average´s door, finally disneyland and so-called Tea parties might be significantly loosing ground, I suppose.
Ruphus
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Date Jun. 5 2011 12:05:28
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