Figuring out falsettas (ear training)

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Ramón Kailani

Posts: 3
Joined: May 10 2011

Figuring out falsettas (ear training)

Hello all,

I am starting this thread because of a post that Ricardo made on the thread regarding speed of practice. I didn't want to interrupt this analytical (sometimes philosophical) thread for my question. I also searched the forum, but couldn't find something specific about the subject I want to introduce.

In the post Ricardo made he showed a video of him learning a falsetta of Tomatito

quote:

I refer again to the tomatito falseta I learned:

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/axEJYoc_OOU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

My question is: how do you figure out these falsettas? Do you do it only by ear?
(Then you must have very good hearing skills)
How does everybody else figures out the falsettas he/she wants to play?

Another question do you guys spend some practicing on ear training?

Maybe this has already been discussed, if that's the case, then my apologies.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2011 9:41:41

Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Ramón Kailani)

I just changed my user name (I realized no body here has his first and surname as his/her user name, so I changed it too).

I am new here:
25 years old, from Amsterdam, quite serious about playing flamenco, but not so much experience (beginner/intermediate)

Compliments for this forum as a very useful platform/medium

Cheers,

Ramón

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2011 9:48:20

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Ramón Kailani)

quote:

My question is: how do you figure out these falsettas? Do you do it only by ear?
(Then you must have very good hearing skills)
How does everybody else figures out the falsettas he/she wants to play?

Hi Ramón and wecome to Foroflamenco.

First get your guitar in tune with the recorded audio. Pick out a dominant string like the bass A in Bulerias (in A) and work out the capo position.

It's much easier if you can slow the recording down.

In the old days you would have to play an LP at 16rpm instead of 33 or run a tape deck at half speed, so a lot of folk are used to working while listening to a piece an octave below.

These days it's much easier due to slow-down programs such as "Amazing Slowdowner".
You can then choose a falseta or part of a falseta and loop it in a slowed down version while trying to work out what the player is doing.

After that, it's just a matter of trying out the various possibilities and trying to reconstruct the jig-saw.

There are normally only a few combinations of fingerings that are practical, so you can arrive at a playable version after a while.

You can usually hear "open" strings being played, which will give you a clue as to the LH position.

It is important to have a good understanding of compás and basic Flamenco techniques and chords though otherwise I think it would be really difficult and frankly a waste of time as you would learn nothing but a "parrot fashion" version which is about as useful as learning to say a phrase in a foreign language phonetically, but understanding nothing of that language.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2011 10:45:37

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Ron.M)

Welcome Ramón,

Ron gave you some good tips. Training your ear to learn falsetas will save you a lot of money buying notes and is an important part of being a flamenco player.

Using the media player on the computer is good because you can always jump back right to the same spot, Youtube is bad because you always have to jump back 5 seconds before the spot you need. Quicktime can allow you to slow down tracks without lowering the pitch.

I however totally agree with Ron's last paragraph. If you're an absolute beginner and are going to learn falsetas by ear and don't have a teacher, start with the basic traditional falsetas (though you'll find enough tabs of these in the internet), Ramón Montoya for example.

Tomatito himself said you can't build a house without a fundament - that falseta Ricardo was showing is full of references from the older traditional melodies but is very complex. You could never learn the basic melodic or rhythmic structure of a buleria from it - it's like beginning to learn English starting with Shakespeare

Rather than copying something exactly note for note that you don't fully understand, the goal is to get to a point where you can listen to a full compás once and approximately jot down what's happening with the correct rhythmic and melodic structure. To do this you have to have the understanding.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2011 12:23:21

Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Ramón Kailani)

cool, thanks for the tips.
Well actually I have an ok understaning of how falsettas fit into compas and have already figured out some stuff from recordings as well. So I'm not a total beginner. For example, I accompany dance lessons once a week (hard to do, but very useful for learning and to be playful in compas).
This video however of Ricardo seems that he is playing this falsetta only after hearing a recording, so that's why I thought he has a very very trained hearing. I don't really understand how he does it.

thanks John and Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2011 12:47:53

Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Ramón Kailani)

quote:

that falseta Ricardo was showing is full of references from the older traditional melodies

ok, I see now

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2011 12:50:35

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Rmn)

quote:

This video however of Ricardo seems that he is playing this falsetta only after hearing a recording

Ah, okay. I assume Ricardo has the Tomatito Encuentro book and knew the falseta before. I think it was an example showing how to learn a falseta, but he wasn't learning it right there.

If you're accompanying dance then all the more important that you have structures rather than complex falsetas. If you have a variety of interesting chord progressions for strumming, thumbing and plucking and a few melody lines then you can have endless fun accompanying dance classes as well as constant inspiration for creating new falsetas.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2011 14:56:01

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Rmn)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rmn

quote:

that falseta Ricardo was showing is full of references from the older traditional melodies

ok, I see now

I actually dont. Where is that falseta coming from?

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2011 15:35:58

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to XXX)

If it's the one I think it's way too complex to even be connected to anything. I didn't mean the falseta was similar to any exact old one.

The typical chords are all in there but not recognizable, mostly inverted or mixed. The rhythm is syncopated, though you can always feel the 12-1-2-3-4-5 or the 6-7-8-9-10 but not always in that order.

So it's obviously bulerias, but it would very difficult to explain why, more even for a beginner to understand why. That was my real point.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2011 17:14:17

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

Where is that falseta coming from?

From Tomatito's brain...where else would it be coming from?

However, I bet he can play every Traditional Bulerias falseta you've ever heard...and even more that you haven't heard.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2011 18:25:49

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

From Tomatito's brain...where else would it be coming from?

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2011 18:49:20

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to John O.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.

If it's the one I think it's way too complex to even be connected to anything. I didn't mean the falseta was similar to any exact old one.

I didnt mean falseta, i just wondered which melodic references you mean, thats all. The music is evolving so fast, maybe that kind of material could be even called traditional by now, no?

Ron, im pretty sure i could play some buleria falsetas that Tomatito hasnt heard of either

edit: To the topic: That Ricardo video was a demo of how he learns falsetas and he just learnt it right there with that foot tapping system. I think it is also a question of how much you play. Pros learn and play new stuff on a daily basis without a loop or computer at hand. And they are more versed in picking up new stuff so i really think its not comparable to a hobby player.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2011 18:53:24

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
From Tomatito's brain...where else would it be coming from?

His butt?

sry, but i had to do this.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2011 19:10:39

Rmn

Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Ramón Kailani)

quote:

I assume Ricardo has the Tomatito Encuentro book and knew the falseta before.

quote:

That Ricardo video was a demo of how he learns falsetas and he just learnt it right there with that foot tapping system.

so did Ricardo use a score or only his ears?

I think we need Ricardo right here

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2011 21:37:30

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to XXX)

That's for sure. It's a matter of practice picking falsetas off recordings. When I was first learning how to scrape guitar parts off recordings, I was trying to figure out pop guitar parts, which were buried in the mix. Sometimes, it was hard to even hear the guitar. The more I did it, the simpler it became.

When I started with flamenco, it was almost like starting over even though the guitar was right out front. Different references. After a while, you start to hear the clues that make it possible to figure stuff out. The open strings, the tunings, the positions and sounds of various inversions. Like Ron, I remember putting turntables on half speed, then dubbing that to a cassette, which made the recording play back an octave lower. Compared to that, amazing slow downer makes it a snap. It just doesn't make it any easier to actually play the material and sound good though..............

Having been out of it for a while, sometimes when I hear new stuff with different tunings or stuff in non traditional keys(solea in B or something) it's a lot harder than trying to figure out a buleria falseta por medio.

Ramon, just start with some simple sounding stuff, or work out some stuff that you have the music for, and keep going. As time goes by, it will be possible to figure out more complex stuff.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

I think it is also a question of how much you play. Pros learn and play new stuff on a daily basis without a loop or computer at hand. And they are more versed in picking up new stuff so i really think its not comparable to a hobby player.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2011 22:13:20

odinz

Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Mark2)

I think it also helps alot to have atleast basic music theory knowledge, and know what each of the notes actually sound like etc, Ricardo sems to know this well.

Though i wouldnt call it a nececity though, you can learn most music without knowing the notes on the fretboard and all, but it makes things alot easier for sure!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 20 2011 22:39:35

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Ramón Kailani)

quote:

My question is: how do you figure out these falsettas? Do you do it only by ear?
(Then you must have very good hearing skills)
How does everybody else figures out the falsettas he/she wants to play?

Another question do you guys spend some practicing on ear training?

Since I am no professional guitarist and spend most of my day with work..I have no time left to waste for figuring out falsetas by ear. I did that a lot when I was a student. Now I watch performances and if I like something.. I learn it from watching the performance. If you see it,..its not hard. Yea..and I have a ton of tabs flying around in my apartment. But I must say..it is important to never learn a single flaseta from tab without listening and playing along with the audio. You wont find the aire in the tabs.
Ear training = time wasting. So I spend 0sec/year with ear training.

If you are fascinated by ear training,.. you probaply also like that metronome. A very manly voice and Tomatito promote it.. So it must be phenomenal. Maybe you could also do some ear training with it:

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2011 8:15:39

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Doitsujin)

he didnt even play to that metronome in the video, what kind of advert is this?

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2011 8:19:46

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

Ear training = time wasting

In many cases maybe, but not always. If you are playing in a flamenco group with more than one musician and are not "The Boss", you need to hear what the other instruments are doing while keeping your eyes on the dancer. And it's not always possible to sit on the right side of another guitarist to see his left hand.

You should at least always be able to know the correct chord to whatever is being played or sung and recognize the sound of each chord.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2011 9:18:22

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

Ear training = time wasting. So I spend 0sec/year with ear training.

LOL!
So you watch the performances with the volume muted?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2011 9:34:40

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Ramón Kailani)

quote:

In many cases maybe, but not always. If you are playing in a flamenco group with more than one musician and are not "The Boss", you need to hear what the other instruments are doing while keeping your eyes on the dancer. And it's not always possible to sit on the right side of another guitarist to see his left hand.

Ive done that for a decade or so very intensely (Playing in flamenco ensembles, dance classes, for cante etc..). The control comes automatically. You don´t need any weird exercises to learn that. Just grab your guitar and be attentive.

quote:

LOL!
So you watch the performances with the volume muted?

See above. I think you meant the same.

And to the video of Ricardo. There are many ways to learn new faletas. Ricardo uses a good one. Anyway, I do it completely differently. All roads lead to Rome, you just have to be serious and not sloppy with what you are doing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2011 10:12:12

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Doitsujin)

quote:

you just have to be serious and not sloppy with what you are doing.

Wise words, wise man....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2011 10:33:57

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to kozz)

agree with Doit, do it anyway u need to do it, final result is the same...i use transcribe, highlight a small portion, repeat a million times if i need to at a slower speed then move on to the next part ...if you can transcribe on the fly like that is great but if you cant is counterproductive cause u have to wait for the whole falseta to get back to the note you cant find...sounds like a lot of wasted minutes in between

if you really really having difficulties finding a note...just highlight the note in loop so u have a continuous tone of that note and you will find it ...even if you have to go fret by fret along your whole guitar..

same with chords...slow down as much as possible and work it out note by note, one finger at the time...once you find the first one is easy...anyone's fingers can only stretch so much so they all have to be withing the stretching distance of the first note..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2011 10:57:09

Wannabee

Posts: 131
Joined: Jan. 13 2007

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Ramón Kailani)

Aside from what has been mentioned, one thing that helped me a bit was to not get too impatient with myself.

If I can't figure a certain passage out right away (even with it slowed down) sometimes it's good to just leave it a few days and then go over it again.

If I can't get it that time, leave it some more and try later.

Usually what I find happens is that bit by bit the falsetta will reveal itself to me.

I mean, I get a few notes this week, maybe a chord or two next week, leave it sit a while and gradually I'll pick more and more up.

What I find frustrating though is when I think I've got it, and then I find a tab that is supposed to be "authentic" and it differs wildly from what I'm doing. Then I have to sit back and see if my ears went wrong or if the tab is off, or sometimes a bit of both.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2011 16:20:59

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to kozz)

quote:

you just have to be serious

Doit I hope your elbow is better, how's it going with the Tomatito bulerias "Rincones de Lolés"?

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=145459&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=challenge%2Crincones%2Cde%2Clol%E3%A9s&tmode=&smode=&s=#145459

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2011 19:54:04

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to Ramón Kailani)

quote:

My question is: how do you figure out these falsettas? Do you do it only by ear?

Sorry, should have linked the original thread with that. I actually got the notes from the encuentro vid and book. But I also pick out stuff by ear the same way. I got a basic idea of the fingerings for the thing from the book and video and watched the vid a few times to get how to start and end and from there the notes sort of add up themselves to make the compas.....so long as you keep that foot going to a steady groove.

Another approach I do more often is sing the part while keeping time, again just little phrases at a time and repeat....wears out the rewind button but you can still learn at least the rhythms in "real time".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2011 22:36:28

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Figuring out falsettas (ear trai... (in reply to John O.)

quote:

Ah, okay. I assume Ricardo has the Tomatito Encuentro book and knew the falseta before. I think it was an example showing how to learn a falseta, but he wasn't learning it right there.

Not true actually. In the original posting, the reason I made the video was to prove a point of how to learn in real time. I did have the video, and was familiar with the sound of the falseta, but had never played it. From the time Anthony picked the falseta for me to the time I uploaded the video was about 2hours. Because it takes time to post messages, I had to dig up the book and video, watch it a couple times, check the fingerings in the book for about 5 minutes or so. Then recorded the video. So I was in fact learning the falseta as you can see. Before hitting record I could vaguely trace it out on the neck but what you are watching me do live is learn the compas of it exactly, and memorize it at the same time.

Hope that clears it up.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 21 2011 22:40:31