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Nice i enjoyed it. But id rather see Öykü Berk pulling such thing off. On their album they have also seguiriyas and also some other slowtempo stuff (not only Tangos ;)), and there it is also quite nicely performed. I guess they dont get asked to perform deeper stuff in TV, etc. But overall, really nice performance here. Maybe a new style is developing with this flamenco turco. At least the outlook with the artists available is quite positive as it seems.
Ricardo lol, you went from Öykü Berk lover to hater... strange, but i guess tastes are different!
Öykü Berk lover to hater... strange, but i guess tastes are different!
I don't hate her, but seems after that one hit, I don't really like anything else they did. I like puro turko when girls sing, it is awesome. But her trying to sing flamenco was kind of a let down.
Sorry Ricardo but this is not a sequel to anything and Rafael Fays is not a Django Reinhartd "imitator" he is a Jazz Manouche or Gipsy jazz guitarist. Why there is a need for you to compare Ilter Kurcala to Oyku & Berk, i simply dont understand and I hope there isn't some guy in Spain calling you Jason McGuire part dos (2).
What I find to be amazing about Ilter Kurcala is that he isn't playing falseta's he is improvising and the lines he is coming up with are simply beautiful. As well that guy can sing and has a wonderful tone.
ORIGINAL: Ricardo I don't hate her, but seems after that one hit, I don't really like anything else they did.
They actually did some numbers with her singing "puro turko" as you say, yet with HIM accompanying por flamenco. Pretty amazing fusion IMO. But i have my doubts that other numbers that are not Tangos/Rumbas will be as successful as them. Their second Tangos was pretty successful too.
Gotta put my 2 cents in here because I just discovered this guy through a friend of mine whose brother is a big name in the scene in Istanbul. The playing in the video above is so similar that you'd think he's trying to accompany flamenco style to his singing as it's so similar, not true. This is traditional Turkish singing with Turkish guitar accompanyment. And just like in flamenco, jazz has influenced their playing a lot.
Check this piece out, this is his music - more jazz than anything else, I'm amazed this guy isn't more popular:
And apperantly Turkish/flamenco fusion is a bigger thing than most people know. There are so many similarities that there's an endless amount to share from both sides. I've been told many well known flamenco guitarists go to Istanbul for inspiration - it's like the Madrid of Turkey.
Anyway Ilter is coming to Mannheim, I'm considering going to see him play, might get to hang out with him afterwards in the studio
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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
... This is traditional Turkish singing with Turkish guitar accompanyment. ...
... I've been told many well known flamenco guitarists go to Istanbul for inspiration - it's like the Madrid of Turkey.
Are you sure none of this to be dressed up / urban myth?
I am pretty certain that fourty years ago, there were no nylon strings to be heard in common, popular oriental music anywhere. Let alone Spanish style. ( Unlike western application like the piano, jazz arrangements, chansons and later imitations of top- ten pop-patterns.)
In the meantime Spanish guitar sound has become so common with Iranian popular music that, as I found out, many consumers don´t even realize anymore that there is a none-traditional instrument in the arrangement.
And as Iranian youngsters discovered the flamenco guitar long before Turkish ones ( on a broader level, definitly so ), I suppose that your source of information is a bit overstating status quo. -
Having said that, I wellcome any production that swings, coming in with at least certain share of originality in composition and arrangement, and at the very best derived from local traditional ingredients.
I would really like to see how traditional Gregorian / Balkan and African chors and melodies could develop into swinging a modern boat, and the same with Russian, Oriental, Chinese and what have you of folk music.
I am sure that they could be doing much better than just adapting western sound fields. -
And what flamenco fusion is concerend, I expect it to yield best into rock. ( Not denying how it can spice up pop productions, if well done, but anyway.)
I'm not the authority, I can only repeat what has been told to me by a Turkish musician, he could be wrong...
Erkan Ogur is about Paco de Lucia's age, so this video must have been at least 30 years ago:
40 years ago you wouldn't have heard an oud in flamenco, nowadays you hear it more often, along with many other instruments foreign to Spain. Still the flamenco you hear an oud in is flamenco, just like a Turkish song you hear a nylon string guitar in is Turkish music.
That Iran supposedly came up with the idea first isn't really the point. And "adapting western sound fields" doesn't really fit as what makes flamenco so different is it's influence from India, Orient and Arabia. So why can't those same eastern cultures see what they can do to their music with a flamenco guitar?
"Spanish style" is kind of off in my opinion too. It's said the alzapua was developed by copying the way an oud is played with a pick. Again we're at the influence of the different cultures outside of Spain, not local traditional ingredients. If that were the case Andalucia would be stuck with Sevillanas.
Tzigan gypsies are known for their manouche jazz, which can get pretty modern. Les Yeux Noirs was originally a Russian song.
I'm collaborating with an African group at the moment, it's really interesting. I've never heard any "modern" stuff from them but you can usually accompany like rumba in a major key. You could very probably throw in some interesting chords and melodies...
Flamenco and rock, do you mean like Flametal?
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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
What I pointed to by"adapted western sound fields" relates to:
quote:
western application like the piano, jazz arrangements, chansons and later imitations of top- ten pop-patterns
as been seen in much of the world since WWII.
To me it makes a difference in authencity whether flamenco artists on their way incorporate other instruments, or whether Turkish musicians tell you of the "Turkish Guitar" and that "many well known flamenco guitarists go to Istanbul for inspiration".
That seems quite the sort of fancy take to me that I have seen before, when it turned out in discussions with Turkish youngsters that they had been raised with the historical skew that the worlds history was all based on the Ottoman empire.
Of the nylon / gut family there certainly exists the Spanish Guitar, construction and play wise. There is the Russian Guitar with its own oddity in built, tuning and traditional music, and there was the related lute and its music in other countries.
But the "Turkish Guitar"; what´s that supposed to be? And even just musically: Eventhough flamenco emerged from mixtures of Spanish and Oriental temper, certainly to my ears it makes for a distinctive character that sets itself vastly apart from typical and traditional Oriental patterns. Being heads above in conclusive and versatile melody and rhythm.
I would find it sincere if the artist you met would frankly admit his admiration for the guitar and flamenco instead of venturing about "Turkish Guitar" and telling funny tales about "many well known flamenco guitarists going to Istanbul for inspiration".
He only degrades himself with obvious and silly misappropriation of flamenco and its musical merits.
Thats to much security for someone who uses words like "Spanish Guitar". You just have a basic disregard against Turks/middle/near eastern folks. I dont think your writing on them is based on anything else than that.
Possibly a misunderstanding: By Turkish guitar accompanyment I mean guitar accompanyment of Turkish music. I otherwise never spoke of a Turkish guitar. However you rarely see a fretless concert guitar played by Spaniards.
"Being heads above in conclusive and versatile melody and rhythm." For 1 they play fretless guitars because they have twice as many tones as we do in Western music, and for 2 not only do they have 3/4 and 4/4 but also 5/4 rhythms.
I also never wrote that the world's history was all based on the Ottoman empire and I don't believe I ever had that discussion with my Turkish colleague, much less any Turkish youngsters I however don't think it's so weird that flamenco guitarists would go to Istanbul for Oriental inspiration. Possibly there are other places where the influence has been longer but Turkey is the gate country between East and West, Istanbul is the city that divides the Western from the Middle Eastern world and is a huge one at that, and it is the biggest city for art and music in Turkey.
No offence but you seem to be writing more based on assumptions than what you really know. I'm collaborating a lot with this Turkish guitarist, have known and spoken a lot with many others and am especially learning quite a bit about their music at the moment, though again I don't claim to be all-knowing. Deniz is probably more informed than I am, and I agree with his last post.
Two questions: Where are you from and could it be that you dislike Turks?
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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
I dislike the effects of mentalities that have not undergone philosophical approach towards objectivity, like before all in the Orient, right. And what you quoted sounded quite like it, though you just clarified what was meant by "Turkish guitar".
What do you like about Deniz post; that he doesn´t know that "Spanish Guitar" includes flamenco as well as none-flamenco Spanish guitar music?
quote:
ORIGINAL: John O.
For 1 they play fretless guitars because they have twice as many tones as we do in Western music, and for 2 not only do they have 3/4 and 4/4 but also 5/4 rhythms.
Great. Obviously quantity in that realm mustn´t equal actual versatility of musical pieces.
The Spanish, Irish, western folk, classical and modern music in general as well as African choruses managed an uncomparable broader variety within musical pieces as well as with variety of compositions.
"The effects of mentalities that have not undergone philosophical approach towards objectivity"
I think I get it. So if I were to philisophize about objectivity and analyze the effects of the mentalities which have not yet undergone the aforementioned respective approach thereto I could conclude that the latter would have a negative impact on my opinions and cause me to make generalizations?
Or do you just mean that the person I was talking to might not have been objective and you didn't like it?
Here's from an interview with Omar Faruk Tekbilek:
" Q: Is there a musical connection between flamenco and Turkish music?
A: In the East of Turkey, in the mountains, they sing melodies and structures that are similar; the scale is similar, too (he starts to sing: aaaaeeeeeeeee). Straight from the heart. The patterns of the string instruments, the scales, are similar, too. I've been hearing those patterns and ways of playing all my life in Turkish music. "
This is really all I was saying and didn't care to get into an inconstructive discussion about it.
As far as Deniz' post goes, "like" and "agree with" are two different things. Possibly you have not undergone a philosophical approach towards objectivity in that regard. It also sounds to me like you just have a basic disregard against Turks/middle/near eastern folks, as he wrote. Still didn't write where you're from.
"Like before all in the Orient, right" - I didn't get that. Do you mean all the Orient is full of mentalities that have not undergone philosophical approach towards objectivity? I surely hope and assume not. If that's true, please let's have this conversation be over and let one of the admins erase this thread.
This was my last post in this thread. No need to get popcorn
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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
Wonderful stuff, Ron! I'm gonna suggest covering some of these with my friend. In Germany Turkish music is a BIG BIG market Not that I'm off flamenco, of course...
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
"The effects of mentalities that have not undergone philosophical approach towards objectivity"
I think I get it. So if I were to philisophize about objectivity and analyze the effects of the mentalities which have not yet undergone the aforementioned respective approach thereto I could conclude that the latter would have a negative impact on my opinions and cause me to make generalizations?
Or do you just mean that the person I was talking to might not have been objective and you didn't like it?
Here's from an interview with Omar Faruk Tekbilek:
" Q: Is there a musical connection between flamenco and Turkish music?
A: In the East of Turkey, in the mountains, they sing melodies and structures that are similar; the scale is similar, too (he starts to sing: aaaaeeeeeeeee). Straight from the heart. The patterns of the string instruments, the scales, are similar, too. I've been hearing those patterns and ways of playing all my life in Turkish music. "
This is really all I was saying and didn't care to get into an inconstructive discussion about it.
As far as Deniz' post goes, "like" and "agree with" are two different things. Possibly you have not undergone a philosophical approach towards objectivity in that regard. It also sounds to me like you just have a basic disregard against Turks/middle/near eastern folks, as he wrote. Still didn't write where you're from.
"Like before all in the Orient, right" - I didn't get that. Do you mean all the Orient is full of mentalities that have not undergone philosophical approach towards objectivity? I surely hope and assume not. If that's true, please let's have this conversation be over and let one of the admins erase this thread.
This was my last post in this thread. No need to get popcorn
I sympathize with where you´re coming from. PC after all is a philanthropic attitude. However, when conducted blindly and unworldly it will only help slowing down progress.
With "mentaility" I meant mentality on cultural level ( not individual ).
If you believe that everything was just equally spread accross the world, then just go to what you thought should be defended as cultural prowess and live there for a while.
See how fellow people in the orient commonly treat each other, animals and environment, and find out how come.
At best not in a metropole like Istanbul where mentality is more updated than with Turkish exilants in the West, but farther into the country. And maybe even further into the Orient.
Yet at will, you will not be able to neglect what the difference is with mentalities that have gone through philosophical progress ( though still far from adequate ) and others that have stagnated since ancient times. - Unless you´d still find it alright to see lack of most basic deconstructivistic understanding and contemporary insights, instead traditonal patriarchy, egocentrism, syncretism, superstition and cruelty. All alive with the 5/4 rhythm. ;O/
And it will definitly not be overcomned by ignoring it / embracing all that´s out there as culture.
There exist good and bad of cultures, and they do affect people and creatures. That is brutal reality, like it or not.
You mean like the Turk I work with, or possibly Deniz' family?
Look up in the form of a question "The belief that race accounts for differences in human character" or "Prejudice based on race" on Google.
quote:
There exist good and bad of cultures
Indeed. I have no need to discuss with people like you. "I'll take 'The last type of person I want to have a serious discussion about culture with, Alex!'"
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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
Hey John, i just watched that vid. The song starts at 0:50. Great song! Im glad you are diving into turkish soundscapes. Id really be interested in your projects.
Hie is singing in Turkish and phrasing like a spaniard, which to me, being Turkish, sounds a little strange and does not seem to work well. Sort of like Madonna speaking with an British accent.
Intellectuality and the arts don't go hand and hand.
Yeah, I could imagine it doesn't always work so well. Too bad this video isn't available for watching in Germany.
One thing I was told about Oyku and Berk is - they're both young, modern and attractive and got their start on a mainstream talk show, now that they're popular of course many other musicians may want to work with them, however as far as musicians in Turkey go there are many who are 100x more talented and are more deserving of popularity. I couldn't tell if it was jealousy or just speaking of the same phenomenon we see in Europe and the US - probably both.
Here's some more Turkish/Jazz with Ilter, this stuff is great!
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
This to me is Turkish Flamenco and is a perfect example of singing in a Turkish style that is familiar. There are many similarities in Turkish folk and flamenco. that is in the vocal phrasing and story telling approach.
Look up in the form of a question "The belief that race accounts for differences in human character" or "Prejudice based on race" on Google.
Now your PC makes you even more rash and superficial. I have been about culture, which only dumbs lump with race.
You might want to take an excursion into western philosophy from Socrates to Kant ( a synopsis will do ); and if you can be more in depth than in this thread, you will figure how all that makes unconscious base of todays common sense in the West. And if you envision even further, you will get a rough idea of how thinking might have been before Socrates´ and his followers´ times.
Times when belief and entity were not theme, let alone distinguished. Times when deemed center of all being was merely perspective of the viewer. Times when all you based on was what you were told as a kid, not investigating into news, neither prepared to evalue, or more even consider striving for entity.
Once you envision that, know that you are around vast philosophical state of the Orient. There the philosophical attempt towards entity has not occured, with belief and entity basically still standing for the same thing. Just as moralism is indistinguished from ethics, and thus unwordly hypocrisy, insincerity, and lack of true empathy common in societies.
If you don´t understand how these things inevitably condition each other, you need to go and live there for a while. Go and see what backwardedness and dogma does to children and youngsters who under prudery and sexual defamation are not allowed to freely develop. See how living with phoney routines, actual enormous societal pressure and moralistic category, and in practise nearly completely missing ethics is. See lose network of belly buttons with no concern of whatsoever common denominator, the very minute that material benefit lurks.
Maybe you like to be a deprived woman under archaic men´s rule, or an overloaded boney hack with blund eyes, a skiny cat or a trash-eating dog with that glass cutter in his paw without anyone caring. If lucky a shepherd dog maybe, who traditionally won´t be trained but just drowned if not showing practical value on itself as a young.
Or maybe you like to be cattle during „Kurban bayramı“, when millions of people in Turkey get themselves a sheep or a cow or whatever to sloughter it themselves, with many without the slightest clue of how to do. With countless of unspeakable events like the following, when a patriarch family head got himself an ox. Failed with cutting the animals throat with his kitchen knife he decided to start over at the legs, with the animal in the end broken itself free and running down the village yelling on the stumbs of its front legs that were amputated at the knees.
Take your friend and visity Turkey during those days for a first understanding what kind of subjectivity, arbitrariness, injust and dismis your blind PC incorporates. Be sure to understand what culture is.
Ruphus
PS: Just found out that the massacre celebration, due to pressure from the EU, will be prohibited in Turkey from this year on.
ORIGINAL: Rain Hie is singing in Turkish and phrasing like a spaniard,
Its because the rhythm of his music derives from flamenco, and not turkish music. I admit its experimental, and not everyone will be pleased by it. He seems to have made a solo album, im definitely gonna get it.
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