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mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

is old wood always better? 
My question is if one has a choice between first quality woods. Let say a 40 years old vs a 6 years old dry wood (de 1a).
Is the oldest always means better? Is the difference significant?
What will be the characteristics for a guitar of having old wood vs young ?

When you look at the handmade guitar, most of the time the older the wood is, the better the guitar is complimented (and the price too ).

Also what would be a "good" combination if one can choose.
1. top, back an side with the same age woods (old or young)?
2. top with older, and back and side with younger?
3. top with young wood and back ans side with old?
(also with the neck' wood but i don't know if this affect the whole thing)

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2011 13:42:54
 
Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

RE: is old wood always better? (in reply to mezzo) 
Mezzo,

I'm not sure old wood is automatically better. Otherwise, any old person would just be a wonderful human being Yet we all know there are plenty of tired, old, no good cranks out there! Plenty of young ones, too.

Advantages of drying and stabilizing wood, let's say over a few months or years, are well understood: more stability, less cracking, warping, soft resin content in spruces, etc.

Whether a 10 year old or 50 year old wood is better or not (all other criteria being equal) is less clear. There is evidence that Torres, perhaps intentionally, scavenged for old wood for some of his guitars (disassembling table legs and furniture, if I remember correctly from "Torres, His Life And Work" book by Jose Romanillos). Was it paucity of wood and financial resources, or sonic considerations? Maybe both?

I'm currently completing a guitar with very old Brazilian wood, nearly 40-year old German spruce top and 100-year old bracing wood. I'm anxious to hear the guitar:
http://www.tsiorba.com/767/recent-work/

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Peter Tsiorba
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tsiorba.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2011 0:33:27
 
estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: is old wood always better? (in reply to mezzo) 
I've salvaged old wood out of houses and old furniture only to be disappointed in how badly it performed in tests for strength, so it could not be used to guitars. Then other times the old wood has been execptional, in some cases I found brace wood, backs & sides etc, 80 , 90 years old and it worked great.

The key thing is just because the wood is old does not mean it's instrument quality wood. It has to be good when it is young. That means good strength vs. weight and proper grain orientation. But good quality wood that ages can become very nice wood. First is sheds weight, but not usually strength. Some woods like Pine, Fir and Port Orford Cedar and many others do something called 'case hardening' basically the outer layers oxidize and the wood gets a little tougher skin. Spruce does not to do this to a great extent, but it does shed weight by drying and even by oxidization.

Just because tree is cut down and dries enough to make an instrument that is stable does not mean the wood is done changing. We know very little about how or why older woods change and effect the sound of instruments, but they do usually for the better. The wood continues to break down at micro cellular level for hundreds of years after it's cut. Some people think that loss of weight and flexibility gained by the fiber structures in the wood loosening up by drying out and wearing out are what is called breaking in or maturing. Vibration also plays a part in it.

I think old wood is fantastic as long as it was good wood when it was first cut.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2011 1:28:50
 
estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: is old wood always better? (in reply to Peter Tsiorba) 
quote:

Was it paucity of wood and financial resources, or sonic considerations? Maybe both?


I always thought Torres sounded like a classic cheap skate

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2011 1:32:38
 
Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

RE: is old wood always better? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
I always thought Torres sounded like a classic cheap skate


Hey now, maybe it was due to Spanish 19th century austerity measures

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Peter Tsiorba
Classical-Flamenco-Guitars
tsiorba.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2011 2:53:56
 
estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: is old wood always better? (in reply to mezzo) 
I heard wood was rationed for luthiers to cut down on the riff raff playing guitars.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2011 3:04:17
 
krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: is old wood always better? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

Some people think that loss of weight and flexibility gained by the fiber structures in the wood loosening up by drying out and wearing out are what is called breaking in or maturing


This makes some sense to me.
After all, the wood ages simply with the passage of time, but you can have it aging on the shelf or you can have it aging as part of a guitar.

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Kevin Richards

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2011 6:29:04
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: is old wood always better? (in reply to mezzo) 
I knew one of these builders selling guitars with 40 years old wood.

The wood is stored in a very humid place and the cypress was covered with all kind of fungus = degeneration.

My personal feel is that 3 - 5 year old wood which has been stored well, is old enough

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2011 8:32:54
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: is old wood always better? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
Thanks for yours input.

quote:

The wood is stored in a very humid place and the cypress was covered with all kind of fungus = degeneration.

sounds bad! At least are his prices cheap?

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2011 10:12:14
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: is old wood always better? (in reply to mezzo) 
quote:

At least are his prices cheap?


No no. Saying your wood is 40 years old is a way of justifying higher prices.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2011 11:47:23
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