Help Getting Started

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Teslaclyffe

Posts: 6
Joined: Apr. 25 2011

Help Getting Started

I hate having to post these threads because I'm sure you see them all the time, but I'm afraid I am going to start another; Sorry about that.

So, I'm new to flamenco, and I'm looking to get my first guitar. I know the basics of what makes a guitar good (solid woods, hand craftsmanship, ect.), and I have a general knowledge of what one wants in a flamenco guitar (low action, good percussion, ect), but I'm sure there is a lot that I don't know. So that's why I'm here. I basically want any advice you fine folks can give me.

For starters, do you have any specific recommendations for guitars? It definitely has to be under $400. I have my eye on a Yamaha cg171sf that I played at a local music store the other day, and it seemed pretty nice for a student instrument; however, I wanted the opinion of someone with actual experience playing flamenco before I got it. I think it was $350 if my memory serves me well.

Also, I would be grateful for any resources or helpful links to help me get off the ground. Something that introduces me to the whole concept of flamenco would be awesome. I saw a video on youtube that said flamenco isn't meant to be written down, which is the polar opposite of what I'm used to (and a fun challenge!). It's hard to find videos that explain things like that when you're first starting out (let alone being able to figure out if they are accurate or not). I'm a pretty experienced classical pianist, and I've played bass for some time, so this isn't my first foray into music, but flamenco is way different than anything I'm used to. Don't waste your time suggesting a teacher, however, they are impossible to find in rural Indiana.

There is probably something I forgot to mention, but it's pretty long already. I look forward to reading your advice.

Thanks,
Derrick

P.S. I'm not sure where these forums are out of, but I live in the U.S.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2011 3:28:01

Pawo

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to Teslaclyffe)

I've been practising flamenco guitar for just about over a year. Here are some resources I've found very helpful:

One to one live skype lessons with Ricardo Marlow www.ricardomarlow.com

Books:

Flamenco guitar method volume 1 & 2 by Graf-Martinez
200 exercises for flamenco guitar by Joan Lorenzo

Online lessons (pre-recorded):

Adam del Monte www.newlearningvision.com
Ricardo Marlow and others www.flamenco-teacher.com
Jason McGuire www.flamenco-lessons.com

Hope this is of use

Cheers
Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2011 9:17:51

odinz

Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to Teslaclyffe)

Hey Derrick

Welcome around!

I have never played a yamaha guitar, but many people sems to start out on it and are happy with it. I would say that you should check for used instruments first actually, you can find instruments that are probably much better than the yamaha even if it it is good in its price range.
You can probably find something good on the forum here, under clasifieds i think?
there are also some guitar shops online, like lafalseta.com or lasonanta.com.
all i am saying is check your posibilities

For learning
I think Ricardo and Jason is great teachers, and have good online stuff, so does Jose Tanaka, i think you find some stuff of him teaching, and of his music on youtube. they all have some sort of demo for free so you can see how they work.
In my opinion, another good way to learn is to just watch players, for example on youtube, Ive learned some falsetas that way

Also check this out http://www.ctv.es/guitar/home.htm

even if its something you have to pay for to get all, there are some free falsetas there, and i think its cool to have those falsetas, and there are alot of them.
My prefered way of learning is learning falsetas and mix it up, or make my own.
Its great practice too, and it makes it alot different from what i do with classical guitar, wich is practice full pieces, wich i find boring because things are sort of set in stone, Chopin is great though

There are many Americans here Derrick

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2011 12:15:56

Teslaclyffe

Posts: 6
Joined: Apr. 25 2011

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to Pawo)

Excellent links, Dave. I will definitely look into them once I get a guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2011 18:16:39

Teslaclyffe

Posts: 6
Joined: Apr. 25 2011

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to odinz)

I had considered getting a used guitar, but they are impossible to find where I live. I was hesitant to buy one online without being able to play it first. As far as watching players on youtube goes, I have done that in the past, with other instruments, with great success, so it sounds like a good idea.

I will check out some you your suggestions tonight, though. Thanks for those.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2011 18:28:02

veet

Posts: 231
Joined: Nov. 29 2004
From: L.A.

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to Teslaclyffe)

In your price range, Yamaha is the only acceptable option. Consistent quality.
As for buying a 'used guitar,' with flamenco guitars, being used isn't going to appreciably lower the price. The better ones increase in value.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2011 20:57:52

vuduchyld

Posts: 170
Joined: Feb. 20 2011

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to Teslaclyffe)

Rural Indiana....yeah, probably not too many teachers. But I wonder if you could find a nearby workshop or two sometime in the next few months? It might be worth going to Indianapolis or KC for a long weekend for the right workshop. If you could take some small classes with 5-10 students where you could get some individual attention, it would probably be a huge help.

I'm sure video lessons can help, but if I didn't have some opportunities for somebody to actually grab my hand/arm and re-position it, I'm pretty sure I'd have even MORE developed bad habits to reconstruct.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2011 21:23:13

dararith

Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 4 2010
From: Oakland, CA

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to Teslaclyffe)

I have a Yamaha CG171SF and I like it a lot. Been playing it for a couple of years and I'm finally upgrading to a hand-crafted one (in the making!). The materials used in the Yamaha is consistently good and the construction is factory-made. I think the wood is too thick and therefore it's a lot heavier, so it's not living up to its full potential...though I can imagine that making guitars where the wood is too thin can be more prone to breaking, which isn't good for Yamaha.

However, even with that, I've tried a few other flamenco guitars that are around ~1000 and less, but I didn't like the sound as much as I liked the Yamaha's...there might be, but I just haven't played any that did. The yamaha is a blanca which is very dry and flamenco sounding to me.

I've had a few guitarists that I highly admire in technical flamenco prowess tried out my guitar and they've all liked it for a guitar in its class. One said, "I like the way this sounds, who's the Luthier? What?! A yamaha??? Noooo..."

=)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 25 2011 23:23:55

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to Teslaclyffe)

I play a .... umm ... I think it's a ... ummm ... Yamaha.

It's the CG171SF. For the money I paid, I don't think I could have found a better guitar. I've enjoyed it enough that I installed a bone nut and saddle and upgraded the tuners to Gotohs.

With $400, it might be possible to afford a Cordoba F7 if the big retailers offer a 20% blow-out on a holiday weekend. These days, they're only offering 15% tops. My big problem with Cordoba is with their consistency and quality control. I think I've already played four Cordoba F7s and every one of them has had problems that would either class the instrument as "B" stock (notable cosmetic or structural flaw) or would cost the buyer an extra $50-$70 for extra set-up work (fret leveling and dressing). So even if you get it within your budget, you might still have to shell out some cash to get it playable.

BTW, the Yamaha CG171SF has been replaced with the CG172SF. My understanding is that they changed the neck profile and the guitar now comes in a semi-gloss/satin finish. There are other changes but they are all cosmetic.

I haven't played a CG172SF yet but I think VietFlamenco will be receiving one for his nephew soon. Maybe we can bug him for a report.

_____________________________

Upgraded Yamaha CG171SF
The Guitar Student Journal

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2011 3:30:43

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to GuitarVlog)

quote:

It's the CG171SF. For the money I paid, I don't think I could have found a better guitar. I've enjoyed it enough that I installed a bone nut and saddle and upgraded the tuners to Gotohs.

Interesting, I have a Yamaha CG171SF as well and one day I was wondering if I could do anything to it to upgrade it a bit, although really at the moment I have no problem with it , so did the bone nut and saddle have any major difference to it ? I was wondering what could be done to it to squeeze a bit more out of it ,,,..
But actually they are really good guitars for the price, it would never be a mistake for a beginner to get one.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2011 9:13:53

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rico_Kiko
... so did the bone nut and saddle have any major difference to it ?

Major? Not to my mind or my ears. But I always try to examine these improvements critically and skeptically.

I will claim that there seemed to be better clarity and brightness in the trebles after I installed the saddle. There were certain falsetas that I used to play a lot with the plastic saddle and I remembered them as sounding a little dull. A few days after the saddle was installed, I played the same falsetas and it sounded very pleasingly different.

If there was a tonal improvement from the nut, then I can't hear it. I didn't expect it anyway. I replaced it to make some subtle adjustments to the string-spacing and to match the bone saddle.

Having said all that, two people who did the same upgrades claimed big improvements. One used the original strings to try for some experimental control. He sent me a note on another forum thanking me for having suggested the idea in an old topic that he read.

I suppose it's also worth noting that two friends have occasionally and repeatedly asked if I would consider selling my CG171SF guitar to them. They may hear something that I don't. There's no reason for them to ask for mine specifically since these appear on CraigsList every now and then.

I feel that the saddle can be an inexpensive upgrade so why not do it if you have the opportunity? You at least stack the odds in your favor.

_____________________________

Upgraded Yamaha CG171SF
The Guitar Student Journal

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2011 13:51:57

cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to dararith)

quote:

The yamaha is a blanca which is very dry and flamenco sounding to me.

You should try playing a real hand crafted flamenco guitar

On topic of the post, I would recommend a Francisco Navarro student. You can get them for about 800 dollars - If I remember correctly there is someone selling theres under the classifieds section of the forum for cheaper

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2011 15:07:15

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to GuitarVlog)

quote:

I feel that the saddle can be an inexpensive upgrade so why not do it if you have the opportunity? You at least stack the odds in your favor.

Thanks for that GuitarVlog, I was just curious , I am quite happy with the sound and all at the moment for my level of playing that is..I would consider doing the saddle and the nut sometime , as for the tuners they are fine now and I do not think they would effect the sound, unllike the strings for example I use D'darrio EJ43's light and am happy there,
It does seem a very common guitar, maybe there should be a CG171SF owners club..

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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2011 15:31:48

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to El Kiko)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rico_Kiko
I would consider doing the saddle and the nut sometime , as for the tuners they are fine now and I do not think they would effect the sound, ...

Do it later down the road. If you're happy with it as it sounds and it keeps you practicing then that's all you really need, right?

Anytime you want to have a go at it, just buy a set of pre-shaped bone saddles from Sam in Taiwan. If he has a "Best Offer" auction, he'll usually take 2/3 of his Buy-It-Now price. He has saddles that are 3rd-string compensated and straight and fully-compensated and arched. I prefer the former and will carve the arch myself.

http://stores.ebay.com/Taisamlu-Musical/_i.html?_nkw=classical+guitar+saddle&submit=Search&_sid=40037081

Sam also has pre-shaped/pre-slotted bone nuts. I use those too.

http://stores.ebay.com/Taisamlu-Musical/_i.html?_nkw=classical+guitar+nut&submit=Search&_sid=40037081

When I first modded my saddle, my main objective was to fine-tune the action to my liking. I didn't want to sand the original plastic saddle. I wanted to be able to put it back to the way it was in case I screwed-up. Getting improved tone was icing on the cake.

These days, I'm as comfortable doing nuts and saddles as I am with changing strings (although nuts and saddles take more time, tools, and cleaning-up). But I still prefer to carve a new saddle. Pre-shaped bone saddles makes the work go a lot faster.

BTW, Sam also sells Chinese-made Der Jung tuners for good prices. Those can be hit-or-miss. The original tuning machines on the Yamaha CG171SF are good enough. I just changed mine for vanity reasons and because I got a good price on the Gotohs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rico_Kiko
It does seem a very common guitar, maybe ther shoul be a CG171SF owners club..

I know it's a common guitar. This foro was responsible for me getting one for myself.

For a lot of players, it's their first flamenco guitar. When they upgrade, it's their beater flamenco guitar.

_____________________________

Upgraded Yamaha CG171SF
The Guitar Student Journal

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2011 17:52:57

VietFlamenco

Posts: 140
Joined: Aug. 1 2010

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to GuitarVlog)

Over the weekend I called Guitar Center and inquired about Yamaha's new flamenco model CG172SF. They had one in stock and I asked them to hold it for me. Picked the guitar up yesterday morning and played it pretty much all day and night to get a through feel for the guitar.

First thing I notice about the guitar was its weight. A bit heavier than my student Francisco Navarro due to the maple neck. Still much lighter than your average classical guitar. The body had a satin or silk sort of finish. It was difficult to tell if the back and sides were made of solid wood or laminated until the tech confirmed to me that it was laminated. On a scale of 1-10 the volume projection was a 7. I suspect this may be due to the thickness of the top.

The action of the guitar was dead on. Very low action and comfortable to play. Low E string at the 12th fret was about 2.8mm. I had my 9 year old nephew test it for comfort and his small hands was able to do barre easily. When pushing the guitar, it will slightly buzz from the D to low E. Just the way I like it.

The golpedor is made from 2 clear piece of plastics. The section where your strings cover the sound hole is solid wood. You won't be doing golpes there anyways.

The machine turner look very nice and turn easily. Much better than the ones i've seen on student Navarros and even on high end Salvador Castillo guitars.

The label on the guitar says made in China. Think of it what you will, but not all products made in China are inferior. For $329, this is a very good flamenco guitar and I wish I had something this nice when I was first learning. However, Guitar Center still have the old CG171SF in stock for around $350. I suggest ordering both and see which one you like better. There's a 30 day return policy.

I hope that helps!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2011 18:37:40

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to VietFlamenco)

Thanks, VF! Good report. Sounds like it's still a solid choice in the $300-ish range.

The neck is maple? I thought it was made from some Asian mahogany?

0.110" inches is pretty low. I think my CG171SF arrived at 0.130" and I took it down to 0.120". I'm pretty buzz-averse.

I think Yamaha controls their quality better than their competitors because they own the factory and get their woods at the source. I've seen other builders buying woods that were marked from Yamaha.

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Upgraded Yamaha CG171SF
The Guitar Student Journal

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2011 19:08:24

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to VietFlamenco)

quote:

Yamaha's new flamenco model CG172SF

I went to a music store a few days ago. There were several guitars lined up and I noticed that this model had the smallest neck size.
Something very obvious...maybe a 630 scale (?)
I did not try it. But yeah the satin look is unsual...

_____________________________

"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2011 19:11:13

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to mezzo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mezzo
I went to a music store a few days ago. There were several guitars lined up and I noticed that this model had the smallest neck size.
Something very obvious...maybe a 630 scale (?)

Doesn't sound right. Specs say 52mm for nut width and 650mm scale. You sure it was the 172SF? Or are you referring to the neck profile?

VietFlamenco should be able to confirm.

There's an NTX series with a narrower nut but that's a crossover. It's better suited for the Rodrigo y Gabriela crowd.

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Upgraded Yamaha CG171SF
The Guitar Student Journal

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2011 19:31:47

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to GuitarVlog)

I mean the length scale not the widght nut.
Maybe there was a hollow at this point because it seemed weird for me too.
I was not very attentive

...

_____________________________

"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2011 19:38:54

VietFlamenco

Posts: 140
Joined: Aug. 1 2010

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to mezzo)

The CG172SF is standard 52mm nut and 650mm scale.

The neck is definitely maple. The feel and shape is very comfortable similar to my Castillo blanca.

I forgot to mention that it comes with an adjustable truss rod. Manuel says that the finger board should be a bit concave by factory standard.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2011 20:19:27

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to VietFlamenco)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VietFlamenco
I forgot to mention that it comes with an adjustable truss rod.

Wow! That's definitely new!

EDIT: Just confirmed from a spec list that the neck on the CG172SF is maple. The neck the older CG171SF is nato (sometimes called "eastern mahogany").

More changes than I expected. I wonder why they went with maple.

_____________________________

Upgraded Yamaha CG171SF
The Guitar Student Journal

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2011 20:23:00

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to GuitarVlog)

quote:

The neck the older CG171SF is nato (sometimes called "eastern mahogany").

correct I was just reading some stuff about it , both good and bad..
Said to be above average in properties such as resistance to wear, strength and durability. It finishes well. It is used for heavy construction, industrial flooring, railroad ties, etc. Smaller billets are used to build acoustic and electric guitars.

Because of its availability and price, many Chinese and Korean imported guitars use nato in their inexpensive guitars. BC Rich guitars, Eastwood guitars and others manufacturers often refer to nato as "eastern mahogany" due to the use of the more expensive mahogany wood in higher grade instruments.

And also the info that came with my guitar was ,..Yamaha CG-171SF Flamenco Guitar- This is a new Yamaha flamenco instrument. The top is solid European spruce and the sides are cypress, The nato neck supports an ebony fingerboard, 52mm wide at the nut. Scale is 650mm. The bridge is rosewood and the finish is natural gloss. A clear tap plate protects the top. The tuners are Yamaha YTM-06 on gold color. This is a beautiful and sonorous instrument. It is specially built to produce the complex music of flamenco.

The 172Sf seems very similar in most respects according to what I have read, although I never knew about the truss rod bit , dont think I would like that, given a choice I prefer an ebony finger board,,
The 172Sf has no neck inlays and I presume this means none one top side of the neck or anywhere, the 171 has small dot on the top side at fret 5 and 7 , this is one thing that bugs me as most of the time I dont look down at my left hand but if I do ( depending on where the capo is ) it can put me right off at times, I actually covered them with a bit of brownish ink ( that I can rub off at anytime) just to male them less noticable, I been meaning to find out a better solution than that but kinda forgot about it........

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 26 2011 21:55:33

Teslaclyffe

Posts: 6
Joined: Apr. 25 2011

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to Teslaclyffe)

Interesting. Yamaha guitars seem well received, so that is probably what I will go with. However, the model they had at Guitar Center was a 171 not a 172. It didn't say anything about being used, and it was the same price as a new one ($160). They didn't have it the last time I was there, so maybe they just found it in the back.

From the sound of it, the 172 is better, so I might be able to have them order one and then get to compare them side by side

Thanks a lot everyone; I feel much more confident about getting it now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2011 0:06:17

VietFlamenco

Posts: 140
Joined: Aug. 1 2010

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to Teslaclyffe)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Teslaclyffe

Interesting. Yamaha guitars seem well received, so that is probably what I will go with. However, the model they had at Guitar Center was a 171 not a 172. It didn't say anything about being used, and it was the same price as a new one ($160). They didn't have it the last time I was there, so maybe they just found it in the back. From the sound of it, the 172 is better, so I might be able to have them order one and then get to compare them side by side

Thanks a lot everyone; I feel much more confident about getting it now.

Be careful that you are looking at the right model! I am not aware of the CG171SF going for lower than $350 at guitar center. The CG172SF is not listed on their website or on the display room. Just inquire with them, they may have it in the back or they could order you one.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2011 0:47:59

Teslaclyffe

Posts: 6
Joined: Apr. 25 2011

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to VietFlamenco)

My mistake, I meant $360... $160?... I wish...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2011 0:51:43

GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to Teslaclyffe)

Since you're getting it at GC. Ask if they can still extend to you that Easter deal of $30 of anything over $199. Tell them you just missed it.

The guys at my GC have been pretty lenient about extending these deals. They seem pretty empowered to do whatever they want in order to get a sale.

If you're good at bargaining, you should be able to get anything for close to an additional 15% discount from the floor price.

If you're not good at bargaining, you can also check if any online retailer has it for less. GC price-matched Amazon.com for me on another purchase, effectively giving me the same price out-the-door. Given that California has a sales tax of 9.75%, that was a good discount.

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Upgraded Yamaha CG171SF
The Guitar Student Journal

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2011 0:58:50

dararith

Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 4 2010
From: Oakland, CA

RE: Help Getting Started (in reply to cRobson12)

quote:

quote:

The yamaha is a blanca which is very dry and flamenco sounding to me.

You should try playing a real hand crafted flamenco guitar

I did and loved it so much that I have one in the making. A local luthier is making one and it should be done in a month or so...I can't wait.

Best of luck with the guitar situation, Teslaclyffe. You can't go wrong with either of these Yamahas.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2011 7:39:18