40-yr dry spruce top, 100-yr old bracing + old growth Brazilian RW

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Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

40-yr dry spruce top, 100-yr old bra...

Hey everyone,

It is not everyday that I get to work on something unusual. This guitar is coming together from some seriously aged woods, and with bracing, which I split with a froe from some 100 yr old Douglas fir salvaged from some boards in my old house. I posted photos and thoughts on this project here (more updates and photos will be added as I progress)

http://www.tsiorba.com/767/recent-work/

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_____________________________

Peter Tsiorba
Classical-Flamenco-Guitars
tsiorba.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2011 22:30:47

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: 40-yr dry spruce top, 100-yr old... (in reply to Peter Tsiorba)

That's some awesomeness. Great photos too.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 15 2011 23:39:14

eg.czerny

Posts: 57
Joined: Jun. 30 2005

RE: 40-yr dry spruce top, 100-yr old... (in reply to Peter Tsiorba)

I see you use Douglas fir for bracing. Do you (or anyone) ever use fir for tone wood or backs and sides? It's very hard and strong. Grain is very fine and straight and is available in wide clear cuttings. Perhaps a bit heavy but then so is Cypress. Too much resin?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2011 16:52:56

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: 40-yr dry spruce top, 100-yr old... (in reply to Peter Tsiorba)

Douglas fir is harder, stiffer across the grain then any of the spruces but it gives up a weight advantage and isn't as stiff lengthwise(weight to stiffness ratio). I've been tempted to try it as a top in the past but my intuition always gets the better of me and I think it would not be very explosive sounding maybe to much sustain, perhaps it would be ok for a classical guitar in the right makers hands. It may have more potential as a back and side choice for a flamenco, won't know till someone gives it a shot.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 16 2011 22:21:29

Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

RE: 40-yr dry spruce top, 100-yr old... (in reply to Sean)

I will give it a shot sometime soon. Heck, I live in Portland, the city nicknamed "stumptown, as the land needed to be cleared to even build the darn place in this once thickly-forested area. The whole city was built out of the old growth Douglas Fir. The old stuff salvaged around the area can be gorgeous, never to be seen again (at least not in our lifetimes) wood. I have once seen (and heard) a flamenco guitar built by a Canadian luthier John Park. He used DF for the back/sides. It was a nice sounding instrument, as I recall. Intuition is one of those things, it works in our favor very often. On the other hand, the flip side of it is what we call prejudice. I think an Oregonian and a Portlander needs to try it with an open mind. It would be a shame not to. When I do, I'll post a write-up here.

Cheers,

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Peter Tsiorba
Classical-Flamenco-Guitars
tsiorba.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2011 0:23:44

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: 40-yr dry spruce top, 100-yr old... (in reply to Peter Tsiorba)

Douglas fir is on average about 20% heavier and 20% stiffer than spruce.

Whilst I know of luthiers who use it for braces and are very happy with it, I would be reluctant to use it for a top because of the weight.

Resin veins can also be a problem and I have experienced some problems with brittleness which led me to consign one large beam to duty as balast on my lathe bed.

Pity, because it is readily commercially available here in Australia, whereas spruce is not.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2011 0:23:50

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: 40-yr dry spruce top, 100-yr old... (in reply to Peter Tsiorba)

The old stuff can be found, beams from barns and bridges resawn by smart people who know its good for more then just firewood and wood chips. I remember somewhere there was a post of a spanish made flamenco with DF top, P Maldonado I think it may have been. DF is the exact opposite of WRC property wise and would pose it's own unique challenges to a luthier making it work well.
Sometimes you just gotta say what the fvck and satisfy that curious creative side of the brain

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2011 5:07:54

Peter Tsiorba

Posts: 130
Joined: Oct. 27 2009
From: Portland, Oregon Pacific Northwest

RE: 40-yr dry spruce top, 100-yr old... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

Douglas fir is on average about 20% heavier and 20% stiffer than spruce.

Some of the very old growth, high-altitude DF is lighter than the wide growth ring count, low altitude grown stuff. Resin pockets seem much less pronounced, and certainly very, very crystalized by now. You are right, the new growth is rather on the heavy end of the spectrum, and the resins keep on oozing for a long time, if it is freshly-cut.

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Peter Tsiorba
Classical-Flamenco-Guitars
tsiorba.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 17 2011 18:00:22