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RE: just wondering what is the difference of accompany a dancer
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Florian)
Hey Flo, I've done a bit of both solo playing and playing for dance, and they are to me, completely different. They are both full of challenges. I think to do a solo concert at your personal highest level is more difficult than to play in a flamenco company. I think it takes more practice, more concentration, and more guitar skill. But, I'd agree with most everything you said about playing your best in a company with regards to memorizing breaks, coming in at the right time, really locking with the dancer, playing the right chords for the singer, giving out the right vibe. But at the end of the day, your not alone. If you mess up, you can jump back on the train. One thing's for sure, that to play in a company well takes years of experience to learn all the required moves, and that many of those moves cannot be learned but through experience playing for different dancers and singers. In that way , it requires a much more rounded experience in flamenco. It certainly requires a higher developed sense of compas, composition skills, being able to improvise, being able to adapt to changes quickly if not immediately, etc. It also requires you to give your full support to others. A singer told me it's a giving art. It certainly is that. I agree it easier to get a solo gig-it's less money for the buyer. And it's easier to show up to a restaurant and play solos than to prepare and play in a company. But, if you walk out in a theatre alone and have to entertain an audience by yourself for an hour, that to me takes a sort of focus and preparation that exceeds playing in a company IMO.
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Mark2)
For myself, often the solo guitar has been enough, but increasingly I feel isolated and like I want more.
There are so many challenges though to learning to accompany dancers and a singer that I have been reluctant to seek it out. However, there are a few dudes in town who have put together a flamenco guitar academy for teaching many aspects of the art. The question is, are people generous enough to share or will I just be back to playing in my basement after I learn how to accompany? There are maybe 6 guitarists in this city that can play gigs with dancers, and the vibe I have gotten is that they are very territorial.
_____________________________
"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Harry)
quote:
I've done a bit of both solo playing and playing for dance, and they are to me, completely different. They are both full of challenges. I think to do a solo concert at your personal highest level is more difficult than to play in a flamenco company. I think it takes more practice, more concentration, and more guitar skill.
i am not talking about Paco de Lucia playing solo against me accompanying at my level....i am talking about my equal playing solo while i accompany ...i say what i do in my accompanying is the same as his solo...i do solo too and i find it eazyer more relaxing...whatever energy and technicality he puts into his falsetas etc..i put into my rithm variations and dynamics and anticipation...plus falsetas, intros, arpeggio whatever is required etc...
obviously i cant compare my accompaniment with the best soloist in the world but il compare it to my equal level guitarist doing solos any day
i totally reject the motion that a solo played by an equal level guitarist to me is in anyway harder ...while he focuses on certain aspects of playing not so much found in accomp i focus on others at least equally demanding...not so required in solo where at the end of the day can do whatever you want...in your own time..other people dont depend or relie on you...aside from beeing in compas at all times u also need to be in phraze, dynamics and sync with everyone and everything else at all time..
but what i mostly object to is reading that accompanying is hiding behind anyone...that dosent sit well with me me since i LOVE accompanying and its what i like doing and its why i do flamenco and i use a huge amount of energy on rithm variations dynamics etc... ..and if anyone thinks that they missing alot of details about what accompanying is about..and what flamenco is about..
accompanying is not just accompanying there's a million levels of it too ...a million ways to do it better and a million ways to do it wrong...one size dosent fit all...depends what level you accompanying at...
every show i do a solo and accompany
...noones letting me hide anywhere, if i **** up here is way more embarrassing then a solo gig cause everyone's giving me dirty looks, everyone knows it and they tell the people who they work with, 3 of the people on stage i never worked with before...had 3 runs on this solea por bulerias to remember everything she wanted where she wanted it and this was the first night performing it...and if i ****ed anything up majorly it would have hanged myself for messing up the opportunity...her regular guitarist so the one shes used to dancing this to is some hot new guitarist who won some major guitar competition in Spain...Eduardo Trassierra...noones taking it eazy here and noones on holiday...there's enough pressure...there's nowhere to hide , everything needs to be spot on how she wanted it and while shes very nice shes very direct is you mess up :-)
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to XXX)
Whoa, how did this turn into a "what is flamenco/what do I prefer" thread?
When I previously said that some things were missing in solo, it was not an attack on solo (why else would I glorify it so much in the same sentence??). Surely, like you said Deniz, that there are things missing in cante as there are things missing in solo. You can't have it all...
...except, now that I think about it, you sort of can. How? Well, you just throw it all in there! Haha. But if we are comparing a specifically all solo, vs. just a all dance/guitarist, then of course there's the difference.
quote:
I like flamenco in all its forms. I enjoy playing it in every way, accomp or solo. Yet i dont regard everything to be equally valuable to me. I came to flamenco via the music and nothing else. What inspires me most is the music, therefore i want to be able to make good music someday. Be it with accomp stuff or solo stuff. I always try to make it musically most enjoyable. Cante is not my major influence yet i dont look down on people who are influenced by it in a major way. I dont consider accompanists to be inferior to solo guitarrists, at least not in a way that they wouldnt offer anything to learn from.
No one is attacking you on this, and I, for one, am not. We play and do whatever we find enjoyable. I was only trying to address the main question on the different ways of playing for dance vs playing as a soloist. Each of these aspects are different, and measuring level of difficulty in a quantitative manner is absurd. They are just characteristics that I'm trying to explain in the most objective way possible [hard to do]. You can affix your own opinion to them, and that's fair. I won't argue on what you like or don't like, or what you find difficult or not, as these are all subjective.
======
Back on topic, I do find that it's really difficult to compare all of this because when you're playing with a dancer, especially in a performance, you play by yourself sometimes while the dancer rests, thereby making this a solo effort. However the difference here is, the falsetas used in this solo version can be much shorter than an actual hour long solo concert where there are extended falsetas and it can be more free from compas, toque libre.
The focus becomes less prominent and more broad to an audience as you add more flamenco elements (palmas, cajon, dancer, singer, etc), regardless of whether it's a solo guitar or not. Martinete is in a sense, is a solo, as there's no guitar there either, but the feel/focus is different. However there's still the similar (if not same) tension/focus amongst EACH OTHER, among each participant. My dancer calls me out immediately if I'm 5 bpm off tempo from what I was playing. On the other hand, if I'm playing a solo, an audience may not even know if I'm off, or even if they did, they may think it could just be my way of musical interpretation which is fine. However, as you add more of the aforementioned flamenco elements, the compas gets increasingly more important and rigid, just like playing in a band or orchestra, and you're not allowed to just do whatever you want with the rhythm, without ruining the overall musical integrity of the group.
I rarely play in performances with memorized sections (either as a solo or with dancers/singers), but I do play a lot in juergas. I have little monthly juergas here where I live, where anybody can just drop in and we have a jam session that ranges from as little as 5 people to as many as 75. Now this is an entire flamenco audience and guitarists can even play together or take turns with random folks that want to participate. For this reason, I don't even know half of the people I'm accompanying, but I have to really focus to create my own personal flamenco flavor and groove it with theirs so it matches up. This means that the preparation work is non-existent and is purely improvisational. The dancer/singer/guitarist all work together in creating something amazing. There's an audience out there too, and when the singer stops singing, and the dancer moves away from the stage, the guitarist starts to play a falseta or solo, until someone decides to jump in the scene and start singing or dancing or whatever...but prior to that...it's become a solo. I admit this skill is different from the skills required to play a solo. And that's all there is to it. They're both different and very respectable. I'm only bringing juerga out because this is different from playing in a performance/show where there's a different skill involved...
quote:
hey i am with dararith on this one...anything more then 2 guitar solos is too much for me... i am ready to sleep ...solo guitar is nice in moderation but its just one aspect of what flamenco is...i need the singer, i need the dancer i need the palmeros i need the interaction.. and i am not saying anything is less flamenco or anything....just too much of it puts me to sleep dosent do it for me ...i dont have a single solo album in my ipod
Thanks Florian, I'm exactly like that too! Except...I actually got some solos on my iPod. Hey...I like all things flamenco...with singing or not. Here I am knocking my knuckles to the table at work to bulerias...
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Florian)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Florian but what i mostly object to is reading that accompanying is hiding behind anyone...
Didnt say that. It is easier (all other things being equal) because of obvious reasons, which i will refrain from mentioning as you are completely unwilling to see.
quote:
and what flamenco is about..
as if you could point one thing out that is solely responsible for people being inspired by it. People can be inspired by anything, even by something YOU would be bored off. Wake up man, its called TASTE!
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Mark2)
Deniz...
show me a solo u do that's in anyway harder then the accompanying i do above...my point to you is that you missing out so much of the details about what accompanying is ...all you probably see is me playing some chords...
quote:
as if you could point one thing out that is solely responsible for people being inspired by it. People can be inspired by anything, even by something YOU would be bored off. Wake up man, its called TASTE!
no its called only scratching the surface..you the one that should wake up, go deeper ....i been regurgitating that politically correct **** all day cause its what i wanted to hear... and its what people who dont get cante or make an effort to get cante wanna hear ..." - oh its ok ...you dont like cante just the guitar aspect of flamenco ?...oh its ok you still just as flamenco its just different TASTE ! power to you "
we both know that's ****, u cant do solo proper and u cant accompany dance proper unless you love and listen to cante...and u cant claim to know what flamenco is about and in the same breath say that you dont like cante
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Florian)
quote:
no its called only scratching the surface..you the one that should wake up, go deeper ....i been regurgitating that politically correct **** all day cause its what i wanted to hear... and its what people who dont get cante or make an effort to get cante wanna hear ...people who are only impressed by the obvious pretty melody of the guitar...but thats just loving and getting a quarter of what flamenco is
Word.
Flamenco is very cultural as well. The melodies, the emotion, grace, everything has a lot to do with its history and livelihood...ah, there's just so much! The deeper I go in the rabbit hole, the more I like it and inspired to reproduce my interpretation of this effect it has on me.
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Florian)
quote:
u cant do solo proper and u cant accompany dance proper unless you love cante...and u cant claim to know what flamenco is about if you dont love cante
I would agree with this completely. The inspiration for creating falsetas should come from accompanying anyway so that the compas and aire has been firmly rooted in the mind.
I think much of the complex I feel about my playing would be eradicated if I could learn how to accompany dance at least if not singing. Pedro Sierra said that the guitarist is the intellectual of flamenco in an interview I am sure most of you have read. He must know the cante, the baile and the guitar on top of everything. That is not to say that solo flamenco guitar playing is without merit however. It's not a black and white issue. But the complete guitarist to me has mastered accompanying singing dancing as well as solo playing and created a good arsenal of original falsetas.
_____________________________
"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Harry)
quote:
The deeper I go in the rabbit hole, the more I like it and inspired to reproduce my interpretation of this effect it has on me.
i feel exactly the same
i think theres 2 types of guitarists in flamenco..
flamenco guitar ( if he was told he couldnt play flamenco guitar anymore he would go and be a palmero)
and guitar flamenco ( if he was told he couldn't play flamenco guitar anymore he would go and play jazz guitar or latin guitar)
i am not gonna tell anyone who is what but there's defenetly 2 types of guitarists ive come across ...i would wash the freaking floors of the flamenco schools to still be around flamenco
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Harry)
Historically, and still in Spain today, the guitar was, and is, meant to accompany cante. In fact, originally cante was just the singer with no accompaniment, then the guitar was added. The dance was the last to enter the flamenco repertoire. As beautiful as solo flamenco guitar can be, it is a development that found its audience outside of Spain from the 1940s on. And, again, the dance is an add-on. The soul of flamenco remains cante.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Florian)
I wasn't writing about you vs. Paco, me vs. Paco or Paco at all. I was expressing my personal opinion about how I felt in regards to the same individual preparing and playing, not a solo, but a solo concert vs. playing a show in a flamenco company.
There is no right answer. You are into the company thing, and it's beautiful. But if tomorrow, that opportunity went away but you were given the opportunity not to play one solo, but an entire concert alone, you might find that would be even harder than what your doing now, or you might not.
I was never able to do both things at the same time. For a long time, I played solo, and after doing a lot of gigs, doing a concert was possible for me-not at anywhere near the level of top players, but at my level. Later, I focused on playing for dance, and I reached a point where I didn't even want to play a solo in a show, much less play an hour concert.
Now, I don't do either!
But if I'm honest, doing the solo concert thing was harder-for me. Learning all the stuff you need to learn to play for dance/cante I think is harder than learning solos, but doing the gig-trying to play as perfectly as you are able in front of a quiet audience-I think the pressure of playing solo makes it harder. Maybe it's because I played in all types of bands for years before ever playing a note of flamenco, so having the support of other performers, listening and grooving with them is familiar.
I think that anyone interested in playing flamenco guitar at any level, would do themselves a huge favor by learning to play for dance and cante, if at all possible.
In my perfect world , I would do it all to the best of my ability. But I'm frying other fish right now.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Florian
[i am not talking about Paco de Lucia playing solo against me accompanying at my level....i am talking about my equal playing solo while i accompany obviously
i cant compare my accompaniment with the best soloist in the world but il compare it to my equal level guitarist doing solos any day
i totally reject the motion that a solo played by an equal level guitarist to me is in anyway harder ...
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Harry)
Do it regardless. It will pay off for you, and you will be given opportunities-if not from other guitarists, from the dancers. Even six guitarsts can't be everywhere at once. My teacher told me it was a good thing Sabicas could only be in one place at a time, or else nobody else would work. Beyond that, it will improve your solo playing in ways you can't imagine. Guitarists often don't mind if you show up to a dance classes and play along, or even just watch at first. Hell, even take the class and learn a bit of dance-approach the teacher first-they have an interest in training new players. Stay with it and you will be paid back tenfold.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Harry
For myself, often the solo guitar has been enough, but increasingly I feel isolated and like I want more.
There are so many challenges though to learning to accompany dancers and a singer that I have been reluctant to seek it out. However, there are a few dudes in town who have put together a flamenco guitar academy for teaching many aspects of the art. The question is, are people generous enough to share or will I just be back to playing in my basement after I learn how to accompany? There are maybe 6 guitarists in this city that can play gigs with dancers, and the vibe I have gotten is that they are very territorial.
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
But if tomorrow, that opportunity went away but you were given the opportunity not to play one solo, but an entire concert alone, you might find that would be even harder than what your doing now, or you might not.
ok thats possible but it also depends on the level of solos i choose to do and weather i do free palos ...
it takes more concentration and theres more pressure in some things but its also less in others...in the sence that you dont have everyone else there to know when u make a mistake, u might not have the cajon player highlighting it...u can play just rehearsed stuff u dont need to quickly figure out a letra u haven't rehearsed or didnt expect, u just doing stuff you already know...with a dancer or singer it can always change ...u dont have the pressure of eveyone relying on you.....u dont have the pressure of everyone knowing when you **** up
i did some 2 hours guitar solos gigs...i dont know if that counts as solo really cause it was at private parties and weddings..but i found it eazyer...at the end of the day they dont know what they listening to ....u can do whatever, whenever..all they interested in is pretty guitar
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
But if tomorrow, that opportunity went away but you were given the opportunity not to play one solo, but an entire concert alone, you might find that would be even harder than what your doing now, or you might not.
Maybe that's how flamenco solos emerged in the first place! There was no one to accompany yet the person wanted to play flamenco so badly that they played on their own. A passerby came by and thought it was beautiful, not knowing that the falsetas used is catered and harmonized with cante letras. But I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm just babbling..
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Florian)
fair enough, but a concert is different. You would not do nothing but libre numbers, and YOU would care if you screwed up. "They" might not know what they are hearing, or some might. Put some guitarists you respect in a few of the seats, a few reviewers, and some of your peers, and bingo-stress city.
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
fair enough, but a concert is different. You would not do nothing but libre numbers, and YOU would care if you screwed up. "They" might not know what they are hearing, or some might. Put some guitarists you respect in a few of the seats, a few reviewers, and some of your peers, and bingo-stress city.
Isn't it similar to accompaniment? If I mess up, my DANCERS/SINGERS would mess up. And if they mess up, then the audience will know we mess up and say, "that's messed up!"
Seriously, staying on point with the compas is difficult ... People don't respect it enough, although I'm assuming a larger portion of accompanists have better compas and rhythm control than soloists only because they are exposed to it more and forced to be on top of it. I'm telling you, if I am 5 bpm off tempo, my dancers would glare at me funny. So I gotta worry about being in perfect compas AND accompanying AND being musically lyrical with my guitar? Holy smoookkkesss. Pressure!
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Mark2)
I'll throw in a few cents. I've lived in several different cities in several different countries. I'm always on the lookout for flamenco. Whenever I see an ad for a flamenco guitarist posted, I send off an email and ask questions. Now, this is just my experience, but the majority of advertised "flamenco" guitarists are classical guitarists who also play some flamenco here and there. They play several different styles and have never really given flamenco their full attention.
a quick word search for "flamenco" turns up quite a few names.
Ashton, Jeffrey; 503-235-1062, ashtone@aol.com; Styles: classical, flamenco, rock, folk, theory, improvisation, ensembles; Levels: all; Location: Univ. of Portland, Community Music Center, SE private studio; Cost: $25/30 min
Costa, Frank; 503-620-8251, frankecosta@comcast.net; Styles: classical; jazz; bass; flamenco; performance; Levels: age 10 and up; Location: at home in Lake Oswego; Cost: $20/30 min; price break for longer lessons
MacAuslan, Janna; 503-233-1206; Styles: classical, flamenco, folk, also teaches banjo, women composers; Levels: all; Location: SE, Artichoke, PCC; Cost: $30/hr
Who would you pick to learn from? I happen to know that Julia Banzi knows her stuff and is a respected flamenco guitarist. She also the only one on the list that has one specialty. The others ones dabble but probably don't have command of the compas or in-depth knowledge of how it all works. These committed flamenco guitarists almost always have knowledge of accompaniment. The dabblers can play solo pieces but usually don't sound very authentic. We should all be able to tell within a couple of bars if a person is a flamenco guitarist or a classical guitarist. It comes down to differences in technique, tone and a feel for the rhythym. I think that is a result of immersion in the art........which usually comes down to being around other flamencos.....ie, accompaniment.
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to dararith)
I guess it's different for everyone. Sure it's similar.
A good dancer will probably not mess up even if you do. They can do their thing even without you. They might feel you ruined their dance, and they might yell at you, fire you, whatever. I'm not saying there's no pressure there. I certainly felt pressure there. but it's relative.
Play the same dance for the same dancer/singer at ten gigs, 20 rehearsals, then maybe it's not so much pressure.
do a hundred solo gigs, and maybe not so much pressure anymore. Again, there no right answer, but for me, the solo thing was harder in certain situations.
quote:
ORIGINAL: dararith
Isn't it similar to accompaniment? If I mess up, my DANCERS/SINGERS would mess up. And if they mess up, then the audience will know we mess up and say, "that's messed up!"
Seriously, staying on point with the compas is difficult ... People don't respect it enough, although I'm assuming a larger portion of accompanists have better compas and rhythm control than soloists only because they are exposed to it more and forced to be on top of it. I'm telling you, if I am 5 bpm off tempo, my dancers would glare at me funny. So I gotta worry about being in perfect compas AND accompanying AND being musically lyrical with my guitar? Holy smoookkkesss. Pressure!
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to XXX)
i dont know why i had that feeling maybe i remember wrong...maybe a conversation we had in the past ? i don't know...set me straight...was i wrong ? ... do you like cante ? if i am wrong then i am wrong il accept it and accept my apologies
do you accompany cante ?
accept my sincere apologies anyway i didn't mean to go overboard on this, i feel as if maybe i bullied you, hope not.. but i found some of the things you said surprising and frustrating
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Mark2)
My 2 cents...
The guitar came much later than the song and dance, the rhythmic structures were inspired by dance and the melodic structures by the singing. You'll never fully understand what you're playing until you can connect it to baile and cante.
The more I accompany dancers the more I get the feeling that I don't really enjoy playing anything without their percussion and inspiration. Solo is harder because you have to constantly entertain with the guitar playing and have a piece completely memorized, with a dancer/singer you do get breaks from the focus of the audience and you can partly rely on the dancer and singer to bring you through.
BUT it takes hard work, talent and much concentration on stage to be able to see things coming before they come and do with the guitar exactly what the feet and voice are doing. This is a question of the quality of the accompanyment. At a low quality you can just play compás while the dancer does what he/she wants and make the standard chord changes with a singer always singing perfectly square, the goal though is to percussively become one with the dancer and make chord changes with the singer no matter what he/she sings. That is HARD!
My solos are generally a palo that isn't danced or sung that night with a bunch of falsetas strung together - I'd never try to play "Tío Arango" for the standard German audience at a small gig, too much time and effort for too little appreciation.
I remember in the first years accompanying always being so nervous and being more confortable playing solo, now it's the opposite. I believe it's what you do more and where you feel more at home that comes easier. And as far as mistakes go, everyone makes them. A guitarists job is also covering up mistakes of the singer and dancer. And the big pros make just as many mistakes, it's the ability to make them go unnoticed that gets better.
Playing for many dancers/singers helps you improve more quickly. Eventually you'll find the best dancers are easier to accompany because they carry you while you have to carry dancers that aren't so good. My experience with singers is the opposite, the better they are the more difficult it is to follow them just right - this is probably because I have much more experience with different dancers than with different singers.
On the weekend I had the great opportunity of accompanying a workshop by Leonor Leal from Jerez, a truly amazing dancer.
For the advanced class she did this taranto choreography starting at 0:55:
For that escobilla I first just followed the feet exactly strumming Hminor to F#, it was really quite boring, she wanted more. A good accompanying guitarist at her level would be able to come up with that falseta in the video then and there, for me it was a good enough challenge to learn that falseta that same night to accompany her with the next day.
She told me that letra is a really old copla, I'm going to try to convince my singer to learn it if possible. I've now fallen in love with Rocío Márquez ... eh, her voice I mean Her album is great, I highly recommend it if you're into her voice in this.
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
RE: just wondering what is the diffe... (in reply to Florian)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Florian
hey i am with dararith on this one...anything more then 2 guitar solos is too much for me... i am ready to sleep ...solo guitar is nice in moderation but its just one aspect of what flamenco is...i need the singer, i need the dancer i need the palmeros i need the interaction.. and i am not saying anything is less flamenco or anything....just too much of it puts me to sleep dosent do it for me ...i dont have a single solo album in my ipod
but this is just my taste...depends on what u wanna hear when u wanna hear flamenco...i wanna hear someone belting it out
I agree with that. I enjoy the solo pieces at a gig, but the highlights for me are usually when everyone on stage is getting involved, or when the singer does a solo
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its just different TASTE ! power to you " 
But I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm just babbling..
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