Spruce wood type preferences for bright sound

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dararith

Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 4 2010
From: Oakland, CA

Spruce wood type preferences for bri...

Wonderful aficionados,

I have my heart set and I decided to buy a flamenco guitar and stray away from my Yamaha CG171SF that I've been playing for a bit. I have a local Luthier that will be hand-crafting an instrument for me.

The guitar sound I am looking into should be more of a traditional blend where the sound is bright as brightest can be, and the control to be responsive and highly percussive. I should be able to hear each stroke for say, an amii rasgueado, clearly with distinct sound separation per flick, as required, and with minimal sustain......and preferably no buzzing. For these reasons, I have decided on a Blanca (though I'm sure enthusiasts can chime in otherwise for the Negra team). I am leading towards a spruce (over cedar) as I hear that's the more bright sounding of the two, and I'd like for it to age with me as I start to develop on my own, compared to cedar not sounding significantly any different as it ages.

My question is really about the types of spruce wood used in producing this effect, and after doing some research, I cannot come up with a sound answer (pun intended), and would like your opinion for the choices for a guitar top. This soundboard will be used with Monterrey Cypress sides/back, tuning pegs, rosewood fingerboard, cedar neck. The setup is for a lightweight guitar that I can hopefully play loud, although I know some sacrifices must be made if I want it to be responsive and bright (that takes precedence)--you just can't have it all, and I understand (unless...?).

For a spruce top, I'm deciding between Adirondack, Engelmann, Sitka, and European Spruce.
1) If they were all of average quality wood, which would you opt for?
2) And If they're all of high quality wood, which would you opt for?
3) What are your personal preferences in order?
4) Any other wood type besides the ones I mentioned to get the sound I described?

I'm leaning towards European Spruce as it's tried and tested in the past (you can't really go wrong with it even if the quality nowadays can be comparable due to its scarcity). Although Adirondack (according to LMII) seems like it can be a good choice in getting a bright, rich sound.

I know I can try out all the guitars and such, but I know there are great luthiers on this site (you all!) and if you have any experience making/playing with this type of setup, if there are any helpful insights you can provide me. Thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2011 8:22:48

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Spruce wood type preferences for... (in reply to dararith)

Whatever spruce can produce a bright guitar. What is important is that your builder knows what he is working, so leave the descission to him. And dont trust what LMI says. I dont think they know much about flamenco guitars. I´ve built with Euro, Engelmann, caucasian and Sitca and I liked all. Since I live in Europe I prefer euro spruce. But if you find a good piece of Engellmann its a good piece of spruce etc.

Another thing, why all this very bright stuff. A flamenco guitar has to have strong trebles of course, but very bright guitars are not very popular here in Andalucia. Players and especially singers want good midrange and especially body in the sound and of course, strong but not to bright trebles.

Very bright means focus on the high register, and the high register is not very dynamic. Its the midrange that gives you flamenco balls.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2011 8:43:19

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Spruce wood type preferences for... (in reply to dararith)

quote:

Very bright means focus on the high register, and the high register is not very dynamic. Its the midrange that gives you flamenco balls.

The mid range does the heavy lifting in flamenco. I agree.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2011 17:03:32

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Spruce wood type preferences for... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Another thing, why all this very bright stuff. A flamenco guitar has to have strong trebles of course, but very bright guitars are not very popular here in Andalucia. Players and especially singers want good midrange and especially body in the sound and of course, strong but not to bright trebles.

Very bright means focus on the high register, and the high register is not very dynamic. Its the midrange that gives you flamenco balls.

Agree totally

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2011 17:54:55

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Spruce wood type preferences for... (in reply to dararith)

If you mean play loud as in hard or aggressively Engelmann may not be your best choice, the sound will tend to break up sooner then with the harder spruces like Euro. How the guitar is made though has more to do with the guitars character then the choice of spruce.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 7 2011 17:58:19

dararith

Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 4 2010
From: Oakland, CA

RE: Spruce wood type preferences for... (in reply to Sean)

quote:

Another thing, why all this very bright stuff. A flamenco guitar has to have strong trebles of course, but very bright guitars are not very popular here in Andalucia. Players and especially singers want good midrange and especially body in the sound and of course, strong but not to bright trebles.

I guess comparatively to the guitar I have now, it fails drastically at the higher registers, and can get muddy when doing certain rasgueados with the trebles being the focus (i.e. planting thumb on 4th string and doing an amii rasgueado).

I have tried a couple of negras and just one blanca (not counting mine) and I was far more impressed with the sound produced with the blanca combined with the type of style I play.

I do play very aggressively than most folks and mainly por cante y baile. The guitar I have now forces me to play louder, else my dancers would not be able to hear me (because the guitar just...sucks, haha). I figured a bright sounding guitar can distinguish the sound from my guitar with their taconeo...but apparently mid-range sound is what I should be looking for...?

I'm guessing it's more than just the spruce species, and it's about the density/thickness/grain combination that would produce the sound I want?

My luthier suggested I go with European spruce...possibly due to its stiffness and straight-grainedness. I'll keep his opinion in mind of course, but I would also like to hear others just so I can put it all together in my head and make a more informed decision.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 1:18:15

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Spruce wood type preferences for... (in reply to dararith)

It's not really the straight grain, Adirondack is pretty wavy grained but incredibly hard, stiff and heavy. Engelmann can usually be found with the tightest most even straight grain but it is softer and it falls sort of in between Euro and WRC. I think for what you want a quality Euro top is a safe bet but as far as power and volume go that will depend more on how the guitar is made.
The strongest recommendation I have is that the top be french polished, spray painting a guitar with plastic does very little to help a guitar in sound quality and volume. If you want to give this guitar every chance possible of having balls don't neuter it with a spray on finish.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 3:16:47

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Spruce wood type preferences for... (in reply to dararith)

I dont know what all this talking about midrange, bright bla bla, "singers dont prefer bright guitars", etc is supposed to be. Get one instrument that inspires YOU, man! Are you the guitarrist or aren't you??!!?!?!?!
About the volume, i have never chosen my guitars on whether the dancer can hear me... there are mics and PAs. I dont believe in guitars with supernatural abilities in volume anyway.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 8:11:04

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Spruce wood type preferences for... (in reply to dararith)

Dont put all spay´s in the plastic category. Nitro cellulose is not plastic and if well done has very high acoustic quality. I cant hear the difference compared with FP.

Dararith:
You cant compare to much with your Yamaha... Is a low entry level guitar which has been promoted heavily on this foro. But it is a low level guitar. Find yourself a good builder, tell him about your playing and let him build in peace.

Since you play mostly dance etc. You need a guitar with a strong midrange push. The very bright guitar you mention is not giving you volume to do what you want. A good solid blanca would be my choice, one that pushes and seperates very well. Prefereably dry sounding with a short sustain in the basses and a good strong treble with a high midrange ring.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 8:11:53

dararith

Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 4 2010
From: Oakland, CA

RE: Spruce wood type preferences for... (in reply to Sean)

quote:

It's not really the straight grain, Adirondack is pretty wavy grained but incredibly hard, stiff and heavy. Engelmann can usually be found with the tightest most even straight grain but it is softer and it falls sort of in between Euro and WRC. I think for what you want a quality Euro top is a safe bet but as far as power and volume go that will depend more on how the guitar is made.
The strongest recommendation I have is that the top be french polished, spray painting a guitar with plastic does very little to help a guitar in sound quality and volume. If you want to give this guitar every chance possible of having balls don't neuter it with a spray on finish.

Thanks Sean! That is most helpful. I considered French polishing, but it was extra money and I thought that was simply for aesthetic purposes, but you're telling me that its tied to sound characteristic and quality too? Nobody wants a cheap pussy guitar...

I will trust my Luthier on measurements of wood density/stiffness and that's where the real deal is, I suppose. I have tried an Adirondack with negra back and I was surprised with the sound quality (it had a lot of clarity and was very sweet sounding). I have yet to try real quality European spruce, so I can't say much on it. I guess the wood property I'm looking for should be something very stiff, yet light, based on what has been mentioned so far...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 8:15:02

dararith

Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 4 2010
From: Oakland, CA

RE: Spruce wood type preferences for... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

I dont know what all this talking about midrange, bright bla bla, "singers dont prefer bright guitars" etc is supposed to be. Get one instrument that inspires YOU, man! Are you the guitarrist or aren't you??!!?!?!?!

Wow, couldn't have said it better. I tried a few guitars today and I picked up a friend's guitar that has been aged for 30 years and it sounded clear as clear can be...it was a super light blanca and I beated on that guitar so bad I thought I was gonna break it.

But the material I played had waaaaaayyy more dynamics than on my stupid yamaha. I was surprised i can even produce such sounds! So yes! Inspiration is key to continual success and pleasure..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 8:20:19

dararith

Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 4 2010
From: Oakland, CA

RE: Spruce wood type preferences for... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Dont put all spay´s in the plastic category. Nitro cellulose is not plastic and if well done has very high acoustic quality. I cant hear the difference compared with FP.

If I didn't post on this forum, I would have just gone with the regular old spray or laminated wood, just like my Yamaha!

Hahahaha! I didn't know these things mattered in sound, but I guess it can hinder the vibration, stopping the sound from projecting outwards. I'm guessing golpeadors can be bad too then, as it's plastic?

quote:

Dararith:
You cant compare to much with your Yamaha... Is a low entry level guitar which has been promoted heavily on this foro. But it is a low level guitar. Find yourself a good builder, tell him about your playing and let him build in peace.

Since you play mostly dance etc. You need a guitar with a strong midrange push. The very bright guitar you mention is not giving you volume to do what you want. A good solid blanca would be my choice, one that pushes and seperates very well. Prefereably dry sounding with a short sustain in the basses and a good strong treble with a high midrange ring.

I guess what I mean by bright guitar is really strong trebles. What you have mentioned is EXACTLY what I want. I want volume and separation between notes/strokes, so minimal sustain. I thought soundboard type would matter a lot so I figured I would pop the question on various woods. I was debating between a cedar at first too, but going with spruce as I hear that it's used more frequently and been successful, and that it only sounds better as it ages (too bad cars aren't that way...).

Thank you all for your inputs!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 8:27:43

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Spruce wood type preferences for... (in reply to dararith)

I'm sorry maybe I'm being ignorant but I just can't buy that a heavier, harder and thicker spray on finish is the equal sonically to french polish. There are a lot of very good nitro guitars out there sure but who in there right mind is going to take a very expensive good sounding guitar and take a belt sander to it to see if french polish improves on it. I don't see how any luthier can talk about measurements in a tenth of a mm or less on soundboards and struts making a difference in sound and then put so little importance to the tops finish. A badly done french polish just doesn't look as pretty, a badly done nitro can look deceivingly beautiful and sound like utter ****e.
Nitro is more durable and the way it's applied has advantages in mass production but the way its applied also gives it a disadvantage from the perspective of sound quality.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 15:35:21

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Spruce wood type preferences for... (in reply to dararith)

quote:

I don't see how any luthier can talk about measurements in a tenth of a mm or less on soundboards and struts making a difference in sound and then put so little importance to the tops finish. A badly done french polish just doesn't look as pretty, a badly done nitro can look deceivingly beautiful and sound like utter ****e.

I dont know which luthiers you talk about. I French Polish, but I know that a good nitro finish can be equally thin and well sounding. I think most of us here put a LOT of importance in the finishing of a guitar. Are yousure that the Beautifull looking nitro guitars you tried werent just poorly made instruments? Lots of pretty guitars out there with bad sound, setups, pulsation etc. Also a lot of poor French polished ones.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 17:13:46

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Spruce wood type preferences for... (in reply to dararith)

The guitar has to be good before it's finished. The finish does very little but look pretty and protect. It does provide a tiny bit of damping that can quiet the extraneous noise, but damping is the enemy in guitar finishes and they should be light as possible. Violins depend on a certain amount of damping from the varnish to make the sound mellow, but that is a totally different topic and still light finishes are best.

To me both lacquer and French polish make the best guitar finishes, both are good done properly.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 18:12:15

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: Spruce wood type preferences for... (in reply to dararith)

I'm sorry Anders, what I wrote may have came out sounding wrong like I was pointing my finger in your direction I assure you I was not in any way. The biggest problem with nitro is the application, put on to much product and then take it down by buffing and polishing. Human nature, your buffing that nitro, your not 100% positive how thick it is nor how even that thickness is on the top, there is that growing fear you may burn through that pretty glossy finish, you don't want to have to respray all over again so do you stop now. The process is flawed by inconsistency and with so many other areas you can be a hair off the mark with in a guitars construction, why add another variable that could impact the sound in a negative way even slightly.
French polish surely won't save a poorly built guitar but spraying a really good one with lacquer may not be doing it any favours. It is easier to put on a consistently thin light finish on the soundboard with french polish more so then with lacquer and this is why I feel it is superior. Also old yellowed nitro sure doesn't look as appealing on a cypress or maple flamenco as it does on a strat neck.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2011 19:22:34