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Why are guitars built to last?   You are logged in as Guest
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TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

Why are guitars built to last? 
I was thinking....which is sometimes dangerous, why guitars, classical and flamenco, aren't built to last. You can find a 200 year old violin that sounds absolutely amazing, yet, a 200 year old guitar will be dead. Is it because the amount of abuse they take? Now, I'm not saying you can't find a playable 200 year old guitar. I know there must be some exceptions like a well kept Torres or something. I'm just speaking in general terms. I believe Anders has some experience with the violin so I expect him to give his opinion. Maybe there are others here with experience with violins as well. I just thought this may make for some interesting conversation.

I should add that I have never played any guitar built in the 1800's so I may be totally off with saying guitars aren't built to last. It's just the ones I've seen that were from the very early 1900's were totally dead.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2011 1:42:48
 
estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to TANúñez) 
I think mainly because the paradigm in Western Classical music has had a focus on the orchestral instruments and those instruments have been preserved. Also because of the violin structure it has a different relation ship with string tension. Guitars due to string tension are sort of prone to folding up on themselves or pulling themselves apart and are difficult to rebuild when that happens. The cost of rebuilding a folded up guitar vs. buying a new one is usually about the same. Unless the guitar is an expensive vintage box.

Violin price point is much much higher so restoration and conservation of a violin is much cheaper than replacement.

It's an interesting topic, I started out in a violin repair shop, but I've not thought great deal about this question, but it's good one. Funny how violin makers tend to look down on guitar makers. When began in the violin shop my teacher dissed the classical guitar whenever possible. One day I brought in a record of Perlman and John Williams playing Giuliani's duets for guitar and violin and he was hooked. ( he whistled the melodies around the shop all day) Then I visited him a few years before he died an he was making a baroque guitar with great enthusiasm. I had already been making guitars by that time and the student became the teacher. ( although I loved my teacher, he was fantastic.)

After I worked in that shop I worked for this other violin maker who was real son of a bitch. He ridiculed me for wanting to build an inferior instrument, the guitar. I left that shop after two summers helping him fix his contracted school district instruments. I did not learn as much from him, he was tight with the information. He hated guitars, I could never figure out why. He was very ignorant.


Maybe guitars don't last as long because violin makers secretly smash them?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2011 2:04:13
 
XXX

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RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
Also because of the violin structure it has a different relation ship with string tension. Guitars due to string tension are sort of prone to folding up on themselves or pulling themselves apart and are difficult to rebuild when that happens.


Can you expand more on the differences in string tension? And what effects string tension on the guitar the most (break angle at bridge/nut or stiffness of the top?)
The folding up, could it be that its mostly because of the much longer scale of the guitar? Also the bridge on a violin is more towards the middle of the string as opposed to on the guitar, thus it can take up more momentum caused by the string i think! On the other hand the bridge is also alot higher, which is causing even more momentum...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2011 9:10:26
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to TANúñez) 
Guitars and violins are very different beasts. The guitar is basically flat and the pull from the strings make a s shaped distorsion in the soundboard when seen from the side. With time (decades) this gets worse and the guitar looses some of its power and strength. It can be repaired by taking off the back and the bridge of the guitar of the guitar, removing the braces and rebrace it. This way it´ll have its strength back. It´ll sound totally different because you kind of change its soul. Its a very complicated job which often means a new back, new bindings/purfling and a revarnish. The guitar is not an easy instrument to take apart.

The Violin is different. The strings push the bridge more or less directly downward. The soundboard is curved or domed a lot and so with strength built into it. Underneath the bridge, on the treble side, you have a pin that take pressure to the back of the instrument and also transmits vibration to the back. Underneath the bass side of the bridge, you have a brace going all the lenght of the soundboard.
The violin is constructed so that its very easy to take off the soundboard. This has some big advantages. Its easy to repair long cracks. Often on violins, even very expensive ones, you see repaired cracks going all the way through the soundboard. It also makes it a lot easyer to take off the main brace of the soundboard and make a new one if the instrument has lost some strength. It totally changes the sound and feel of the instrument but sometimes its nescessary. Its a lot less work to replace 1 brace instead of 7 or 9 braces and in general, the violin is a lot easyer to work.

I hope this clears a few things.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2011 9:16:10
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to TANúñez) 
Deniz,
The bridge on a guitar and a violin work opposite. The string pressure on a guitar tries to pull the bridge off the soundboard, whereas the string pressure on a violin tries to push the bridge down through the soundboard.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2011 9:19:52
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
Yes, good explanation. I had a feeling it was going to come down to string tension and the way the two instruments are built. I wonder if the Fleta's, being a violin family first, built any violin into the guitar? Aside from the neck to body joint.

I was curious to see the inside bracing of a violin but when I do a google search, very little comes up. Almost as if it's secretive. Is there only one long brace inside? Is the bridge glued down or held down by the downward pressure of the strings?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2011 14:11:41
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to estebanana) 
Stephen I'm surprised you didn't go down the violin building route since you spent time in shops. Or have you actually built violins too?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2011 14:13:18
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to TANúñez) 
quote:

I was curious to see the inside bracing of a violin but when I do a google search, very little comes up. Almost as if it's secretive. Is there only one long brace inside? Is the bridge glued down or held down by the downward pressure of the strings?


Just 1 bass bar and the bridge is not glued to the soundboard. The pin is also not glued in place and can be moved to find the soft spot.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2011 15:43:42
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
Is that a random image or your build Anders? Seems so simple yet I have a feeling there is a lot actually going on. Is a dovetail the traditional method of joining the neck?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2011 16:24:35
 
Morante

 

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RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
¿Porque la guitarra clásica y flamenca y California utilizan puentes pegados? El sistema de las guitarras de jazz con el puente flotante parece mas lógico.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2011 16:32:50
 
prd1

 

Posts: 206
Joined: Jul. 11 2007
 

RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to Morante) 
My Spanish is pretty crap so apologies if I have misunderstood... a jazz type of guitar works by applying pressure via the bridge in a similar way that you would administer CPR - i.e. direct pressure into the body of the instrument. A fixed bridge system relies on the contraction and expansion of the effective length of the guitar string in an orthogonal axis to the top of the guitar which results in a pumping of the body more akin to the action of a bellows.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2011 17:12:22
 
kovachian

Posts: 506
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From: Americanistan

RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to TANúñez) 
Anders, I know you used to play violin but have you built one before? You should expand your portfolio!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2011 20:05:58
 
estebanana

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RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to TANúñez) 
quote:

Seems so simple yet I have a feeling there is a lot actually going on.


That's an under statement.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2011 20:57:18
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
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RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to Morante) 
quote:


¿Porque la guitarra clásica y flamenca y California utilizan puentes pegados? El sistema de las guitarras de jazz con el puente flotante parece mas lógico.


No entiendo porque hablas de logica. Son dos sistemas de construir un instrumento de cuerdas bien diferentes. Cada uno con su propia lógica. La guitarra de Jazz, en su construcción, parece más al violin y sirve muy mal para tocar el flamenco.

No, I´ve never built a violin, but I´ve repaired a few many years ago. The image is just a random one found on google...... Maybe one day. when time, health and the stars are all with me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2011 21:35:28
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

Maybe one day. when time, health and the stars are all with me.

¿Estás enfermo? Espero que no.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2011 21:43:53

tamoio

Posts: 20
Joined: Feb. 7 2011
From: mostly Alaska

RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to Escribano) 
There are of course guitars that are constructed much more like violins-Arch top guitars. I wonder if they will last longer? The design is relatively recent, but some of the classic arch tops go for huge amounts of money.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2011 23:35:34
 
jlneng

Posts: 118
Joined: Jun. 28 2009
 

RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to TANúñez) 
Hello All,
I had the rare chance to play 3 different Santos Hernadez flamenco guitars last april. On was from 1923, the others from 1933 & 1934 I believe. Two of the three were giants. One of my friends has a 1942 Barbero with pegs which I have heard him play and it is a giant. I have heard and played other modern flamenco guitars built by reputable makers, and with the exception of two made by Robert Ruck, they were all second class compared to the older ones I mentioned. Another friend has a 1932 Esteso flamenco which I have played and heard played. I would not put it in the giant catagory but it would stand up against anything I have heard that was made after 1980. I believe that if an instrument has proper care, it and is properly constructed, it should improve with age. One also has to factor in the strings available at the time the guitar was constructed. While gut strings had similiar string tension compared to modern strings, they had many different tonal qualities. I have often been tempted to try a set of gut strings on one of my flamencos, if one could keep it in tune, it might provide an enlightening experience. Just my opinion though!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2011 2:00:36
 
chapman_g

 

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RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to jlneng) 
Is string tension the only major detriment to a guitar's longevity? If I buy my next great guitar now at current price and store it properly for 30 years with strings off after breaking it in for at least a year or 2 - Will I be able to pull it out then when the others start to lose there sound and be covered for another 30 years?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2011 12:47:56
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Why are guitars built to last? (in reply to TANúñez) 
I think so. But you´ll have to open it up again.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 22 2011 14:31:38
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