Sabicas

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Sabicas

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Guest

Sabicas

After all this time listening to flamenco, I'm embarased to say that I just got my first full cd of Sabicas (Grandes Figures du Flamenco), and I got to say, WOW!!!

The man was like a machine. I mean, loud, clear, fast and no stopping at any time during the songs. Them fingers always flying.

Needles to say, I ended up with a whole bunch of questions, so here go a few. Maybe someone can help me with my learning curve.

Syncopation - Is that the gaps in play that PDL introduced which seem to be lacking in Sabicas? He seems to cover every second of every song with notes.

Machine gun Rasgeados - Seems he had some in several songs. I was under the impression PDL started that trend. Am I just confused?

Barbero guitar - Things I've read about the "perfect" flamenco guitar seem to refer back to Sabicas' barbero model. Anyone know if he actually used it in this cd? One can tell different guitars were used, just trying to hear the sound of the famous one.

Action - Regardless of the guitars he used, all seem to have that low action with the very obvious light metal buzzing. I notice that currently this is not as perceptive with the new greats. Is it due to a change in tastes with time, or the need for more ranges due to solo playing.

Sorry to be long winded. I'll stop now.

Thanks,
SJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2004 2:12:04

Skai

Posts: 317
Joined: Sep. 12 2004

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Guest)

Syncopation - I heard that in early solo records, the compas structure was more clearly heard. Same for PDL's earlier ones. However these players start using more syncopation for some variety later on.

Machine gun rasguedos? I think it's quite a must in palos such as bulerias, even in accompanying. I think that it has been around for a long while already.

As for buzzing, I think that earlier players used their guitars more for accompanying and I'm sure you should know why these intruments should buzz. But as time got on, players like PDL seemed to prefer using intruments with less buzzing for their solo records. Maybe to make it sound cleaner?

Alright, I'm inexperienced at all this

Maybe someone who knows his/her stuff can come correct us. Well, I did try my best lol

Skai

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2004 3:01:24

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Guest)

Syncopation- is not the gaps in play, it's playing around with the rhythm using the spaces between beats and the syncopation that lies there to be exploited.

Machine gun Rasgueados- Been going since the begining. Modern players tend to thin out Ras and articulate the individual finger strokes.

Barbero Guitar- Don't really know what guitar used on your recording, probably be either his Barbero or his Ramirez.

Buzzing- The thing to remember here is that guitar string technolegy has been vastly improved over the years since your recording. Sab probably had either cat gut or early nylon strings to choose from. Today there are many brands offering carbon technology and a variety of tensions. A low action guitar today need not have buzzing or finger squeeks. Nothing to do with the player.

Just my own thoughts on the points you query.

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2004 13:30:10

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Guest)

I play a copy of the 51 Barbero actually. (Brune)

Sabicas used a 51 Marcelo Barbero for Flamenco Puro. No Ramirez on
that album.

Its my understanding, through my conversations with Richard Brune, who
actually had this guitar in his posession, that the Barbero had a negative
neck relief. The actuall bridge/hieght "action" was rather normal.
Over 3mm in fact.
We agree that the buzzing was purposeful. Liken this to the
snares on a drum head, or on a cajone. Thats the sound he was going
for. If it wasnt, he wouldnt have used that guitar.

IMHO, there havent been any changes in strings that would lessen buzz.
That comes from physics, wich i dont think will ever change.

Also, there are some older PDL pieces that are more straight 8's and 16's
throughout, with not lots of synco.
I saw an old video of him playing the beginings of Guajira de Lucia, and
it sounded like Sabicas.

Toddk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2004 14:10:54

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Guest)

I had the great luck of seeing Sabicas play live in a little theatre in Madrid once.
He was a guest on a sort of Spanish Variety show.
He was a pretty old man and needed a bit of help getting to his seat to play.
At that time Paco de Lucia had really taken a grip on the Flamenco guitar world and Paco and Camaron were the new, young fenomenos.
So I went mainly out of interest, to see this legend play, but basically I was won over by the "new wave" myself.
But when the man began to play!
You weren't even conscious of the guitar, just this beautifully lyrical music filling the space of the theatre.
He had this fantastic, warm sound and the falsetas just were seamless as the music flowed effortlessly from his hands.
He brought the house down!
And I left knowing I had seen a true master, and a regained respect for the man's work.

If you can get a hold of "The Queen of the Gypsies" LP, with Carmen Amaya, his playing on it stands up to anything you can hear today as far as technique, energy, drive and syncopation go IMO.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2004 14:59:27

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Guest)

To confirm what you subtly eluded to;

Sabicas could knock you out with any piece of wood with
strings on it, that you can find. :)

Toddk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2004 15:12:51

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Sabicas (in reply to ToddK)

Todd and others,
I heard there is a Sabicas video, or perhaps more out. Have any recommendations?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2004 16:38:52

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I´d love some "old" Sabicas
I only got "new stuff". Some solos from the 60-70´s would be great or something with Carmen Amaya

Henrik

.....And how the H*ll does one get a punchy picado i only get faster not more flamenco

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2004 16:45:23

nhills

Posts: 230
Joined: Jul. 13 2003
From: West Des Moines, IA USA

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Grandes Figures

Many of the tracks on this CD are from "Flamenco Puro" - and that's the famous Barbero, as Todd said. Interestingly, the guitar was originally built for Carlos Montoya - has a dedication to Carlos written by Barbero in it. Sabicas got it from Carlos.

Norman

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2004 17:42:20

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

I heard there is a Sabicas video, or perhaps more out.

Hey Miguel. There's a VHS out called 'El Maestro del la Guitarra'. I believe Flamenco Connection has it.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2004 14:16:08

Carlos Bedoya

Posts: 20
Joined: Feb. 15 2005
From: San Juan, Puerto Rico

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Syncopation - Is that the gaps in play that PDL introduced which seem to be lacking in Sabicas? He seems to cover every second of every song with notes.

In my opinion, there is nothing lacking in Sabicas. It's hard to think of more complete guitarist/composer. Flamenco Puro is one of my favorite recordings in any style of music.

If you just recently heard Sabicas it's possible you may have not heard a full CD of Ramon Montoya who goes further back and may also surprise you.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2005 5:30:57

eslastra

Posts: 134
Joined: Jul. 12 2003
From: Livermore, CA USA

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Carlos Bedoya)

One of the best solo guitar concerts I ever saw was Sabicas back in the early '80's. What I recall the most of his playing was his command of dynamics. He could get loud and powerful and in the next instant be so serene. It's a quality I don't hear in too often. His music was definitely mesmerizing. My favorite albums of his: El Rey del Flamenco, Flamenco Puro, and Queen of the Gypsies w/ Carmen Amaya.

I recently got hold of a limited CD release by Rhino Records of his Elektra Records classic 'Greatest Flamenco Guitarist' Vol 1,2,&3 all on one CD. Worth getting if still available. Check out the Rhino Records website.

_____________________________

Eddie Lastra

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2005 13:26:11

eslastra

Posts: 134
Joined: Jul. 12 2003
From: Livermore, CA USA

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Carlos Bedoya)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carlos Bedoya

In my opinion, there is nothing lacking in Sabicas. It's hard to think of more complete guitarist/composer. Flamenco Puro is one of my favorite recordings in any style of music.

Brings back to mind something I read long ago that Sabicas said to become a complete flamenco guitarist you had to spend 20 years accompanying cante, 20 years accompanying dance, and 20 years playing solo. Based on what I've heard for myself, I'd say he succeeded

_____________________________

Eddie Lastra

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2005 13:30:57

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Queen of the Gypsies

Ron;

Queen of the Gypsies is considered by many to be the best flamenco recording made! I have to agree with that.

I consider Sabicas to be the “complete guitarist”. I have all his recordings from LP’s to CD’s. The first time I met him was during the late 1950’s. He used and endorsed Saverez nylon strings and bought them by the box. The man was not only talented but a true gentleman. He always took time to talk to you and encourage you.

Sabicas could keep perfect compas when accompanying Carmen Amaya or anyone else. During his solo career he would take liberties with the compas to gain the effect he wanted. His brother Diego and he were very close and played together on many occasions. Diego learned little or nothing from Sabicas but could hold his own. I have a number of personal pictures of Sabicas in my personal collection. Sabicas was approachable as a human being and artist. He had a very level head.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 25 2005 2:41:34

steenland

Posts: 36
Joined: Jul. 7 2003

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Guest)

SJ:

Having been to a couple of his concerts at Town Hall, and seen him play Aires de Triana
(Bulerias) at the American Institute of Guitar, do not remember any waste motion such as flying fingers. There was no waste motion.

Recuedos,

T. J. Steenland

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2005 20:53:58

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Guest)

If you like Sabicas, listen to Mario Escudero too.
They record a lot duets, and I am allways very surprised that that "old "guys could play so well, and technical perfect.
Whatever is done today, you hear still the roots from this guys.
Peter

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 2 2005 21:15:56

eslastra

Posts: 134
Joined: Jul. 12 2003
From: Livermore, CA USA

RE: Sabicas (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gerundino63

If you like Sabicas, listen to Mario Escudero too.
They record a lot duets, and I am allways very surprised that that "old "guys could play so well, and technical perfect.
Whatever is done today, you hear still the roots from this guys.
Peter

LOL, let's not forget, these 'old' guys were young at the time they cut their best recordings

_____________________________

Eddie Lastra

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 3 2005 9:13:48

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Guest)

Sabicas had control not only of dynamics and tone quality, but also his control of tempo was distinctive. His accelerandos, decelerandos, and quick changes of tempo within a piece were perfectly controlled and formed part of Sabicas' unique expressive quality. I think it was all that time spent accompanying a dancer as great as Carmen Amaya that led to his subtle control of tempo. Perhaps Carmen learned something from Sabica as well.

RNJ I

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2005 5:08:21

Taranto

Posts: 213
Joined: Apr. 7 2005

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Guest)

Guys, don't get sentimental. Surely he was great for his time, but for our time he isn't even considered. Otherwise everybody would play Sabicas.

[Please don't shoot me :)]

Cheers, Taranto

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2005 12:10:36

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Taranto)

I will not shoot you

!

But I think that the flamenco guitar gods of today, play more Sabicas than you would think.

Paco Pena recorded Punta y Tacon
Paco de lucia recorded Impetu
And recently recorded Gerardo Nunez Impetu too.

Also Sabicas In his time brought the flamenco solo guitar to a far more higher level, than it was before.

Peter

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2005 12:24:33

Taranto

Posts: 213
Joined: Apr. 7 2005

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 13 2005 13:03:09

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2005 12:58:10

flamencoguru

Posts: 271
Joined: Jun. 30 2004
From: West Palm Beach, Florida USA

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Guest)

Hello Taranto,

I respect your opinion but I truely think you're not seeing the big picture. Sabicas is and will always be considered one of the greats. His music is still played and enjoy by many, including myself. Javier Conde, the child prodigy preforms many Sabicas pieces on a regular basis.

An influence of Sabicas is heard in each and every flamenco guitarist that walks the planet, including the great Paco De Lucia. Sabicas was a maestro in both playing and composing flamenco.

If he still lived today, he would give all those young pups a run for their money.

¡OLÉ, VIVA SABICAS!

Here's a video of me playing a farruca by Sabicas. Enjoy.

cheers.

http://michaelk101.com/todd/toddmp3/Puntaytaconerrol.wmv

P.S. For Gerundino63: Actually Ímpetu was composed by Mario Escudero. Sorry just had to clarify that.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2005 17:29:03

gshaviv

Posts: 272
Joined: Mar. 22 2005
From: Israel

RE: Sabicas (in reply to flamencoguru)

Nice playing flamencogutu!

_____________________________

Guy

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2005 18:09:09

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Sabicas (in reply to flamencoguru)

Flamencoguru.

First of all, wonderfull playing!!!

That alone can make me jaleous, but it is almost not bearable, that every video of you is taken with short pans!!
I am sitting here for days in the rain

and nearly 10 degrees C

Next video you are playing with your coat on, and a few gloves, ok!?

Thank for pointing me on Impertu and Escudero, we do the man short otherwise, right?

I really like your playing, and enjoy your video's.

Peter.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2005 19:42:10

flamencoguru

Posts: 271
Joined: Jun. 30 2004
From: West Palm Beach, Florida USA

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Guest)

Hello Peter,

Thanks for the compliment. It's always appreciated. I've been to Holland in the winter and I can tell you I don't miss the weather. The country is beautiful. I used to date a girl from Utrecht. I really love the weather in Florida, shorts and t-shirts everyday. You can't beat it!!

By the way, I think Mario Escudero was a wonderful composer too. I don't think he was as clean as Sabicas but his music meant a lot. By the way, Escudero spent his final years in sunny south Florida. Weird? I guess he too loved the weather.

Cheers.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2005 20:46:09

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Taranto)

quote:

[Please don't shoot me :)]

I will consider your request.

Although not everyone who plays flamenco guitar today plays like Sabicas, I think we do owe him a good deal, as well as other flamenco guitarists from the past.

My feeling is that we learn from the past and Sabicas was part of the foundation we have all drawn upon to further our understanding of the instrument we use to attempt to use to play flamenco.

Some would say that PDL is obsolete and has contributed nothing to flamenco guitar. You can say what you please as can everyone else. Somehow I think your logic or argument is flawed. Not everyone has to play like Sabicas for Sabicas to have been a great flamenco guitarist who left us a great deal.

One interesting thing about Sabicas was he would walk into a recording studio and on one take record a record. It took him about 45 minutes to complete a record. Today we have CD’s that take up to two years to complete, and require the use of studio engineers, software and hardware to punch out and punch in the correct notes that the recording artist made.

Perhaps I am old fashioned and I am, in that I respect those who have contributed to our worldly endeavors. By the way I consider Sabicas and his brother Diego to have been good friends and certainly will never forget the encouragement they gave me over the many years I knew them.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2005 1:16:59

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Sabicas (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

I am sitting here for days in the rain and nearly 10 degrees C

Your not alone peter. Your not alone

Henrik

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2005 5:26:40

frhout

Posts: 453
Joined: Apr. 28 2005
From: France

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Guest)

Personally, I think Sabicas is the best. There are just so many pieces I would like to play, as faultless as he does. I had most of Sabicas' records (apart from those released in the USA) until I got burgled in London. I've been trying to get them back. Sabicas does not have a lot "re-mix" or "best of", unlike Paco de Lucia whom I admire, so I consider every Sabicas' record worth buying.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2005 21:14:27

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Sabicas (in reply to frhout)

Frought,
Yeah I know what you're saying...
Sabicas was brilliant!
Look, there is no doubt about it that Paco took things to a different level.
A level that inspired a new generation of players.
Where does that leave Sabicas?
One of the Giants IMO, who showed the World how Flamenco Guitar can be.
Paco would not be Paco except for Sabicas.
That's how the music moves on IMO.

On a completely different subject..
My good friend Ricardo has often gone on about not speaking about the guys you don't like... the guys who don't do it for you.
I've got to agree with him here.
Don't knock them!
Like him I think all Flamenco guitarists are part of a "fellowship".

All of these guys have something to say if you have ears to listen....

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2005 21:39:37

Guest

RE: Sabicas (in reply to Ron.M)

On the subject of Grandes Figures, I have just bought a copy and its seems to have an incorrect track listing.Trk 2 is listed as Ecos de la Mina whereas I recognise it as Punta y Tacon from Toddk's video - 15 is Ecos Jerezanos not Brisas de la Caleta - 17 is OK ,cos it's the only song - 14 is a siguiriya(i'm learning gradually!) - after that I,m not sure.Can anyone help? Thanks

Andy P

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2005 6:09:46