RE: A year of Flamenco study

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elgreco

Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA

RE: A year of Flamenco study (in reply to Ricardo)

I agree with Ricardo (once again :) 100%. I am where you are. I started learning flamenco a year ago from JM, JS (Juan Serrano) and the Graf books. To make things even worse I had a classical guitar teacher. I recently switched to a flamenco teacher. He is:
1. A great personality
2. A great teacher
3. Mui flamenco, trained and played with big guys in Europe etc.

All these characteristics are hard to find in one person at once but maybe you will get lucky. So my guy threw my books, my theory and my falsettas out the window and made me discover the rhythm within me rather than trying to force the rhythm at me as most books do.

Now I am getting better and better exponentially
Hope this helps
Dinos

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Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other?
Don Diego from San Fernando.
Don Francisco from San Jose.
Don Fernando from San Diego.
Don Jose from San Bernardino.
Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2011 15:36:06

elgreco

Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA

RE: A year of Flamenco study (in reply to sean65)

Oops I missed some episodes. You went with the teacher approach. Great.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sean65

quote:

Since starting the original post I decided to leave all the books to one side and seek out one of the London teachers. I'm now studying with Francisco Antonio 'Tony' Clinton. He's a great player but more importantly a great teacher.

_____________________________

Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other?
Don Diego from San Fernando.
Don Francisco from San Jose.
Don Fernando from San Diego.
Don Jose from San Bernardino.
Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2011 15:37:35

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: A year of Flamenco study (in reply to XXX)

With everything scheduled like this I would have dropped flamenco after a couple of weeks I guess.

quote:

cool post of Victor Wooten

I had a look at the video again. This is almost exactly how I was told to practice by my teacher. To practice slowly with many clicks first and then getting faster while reducing the frequency of the clicks.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2011 16:20:14

dararith

Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 4 2010
From: Oakland, CA

RE: A year of Flamenco study (in reply to sean65)

quote:

I'm sure many of you must remember being one year into your studies, so it would be nice to hear how you pushed forward and overcame your doubts.

So please jump on this thread if you'd like to share your own experience or offer any advice.

I'm in the same boat in learning. I initially learned two/three 'pieces' from JM, and then switched over and learned a bunch through GM. Most of what I played were robotic and didn't have any aire...and did not hit the beats correctly (still correcting this actually...). Now I'm sifting through Oscar Herrero's accompaniment books, and random sections in Encuentro books/dvds and consulting a local flamenco teacher when necessary (because lessons can be expensive...)

However, strangely enough, my biggest breakthrough happened when I didn't even touch the guitar. I listened to more cante and try to feel the groove by tapping my foot. Yes, the silly foot needs to tap (easy to do when you're driving in a car and got nothing better to do). Because I'm used to western music, it's easier for me to grasp rhythmic palos in 4's (Tangos, for instance). I later did palos with a 12-beat compas and started tapping my foot to the accents. Now I'm messing with Bulerias where I'm tapping it consistently in two's or threes or sixes, and hardly at the full accented spots. Then when I went back to learning any palo, I'm able to internalize the rhythm faster and know where the notes on the beat should fall in the compas, regardless of how fast or slow the tempo. Now my head understands it, but I gotta get my fingers to actually execute what I know on the guitar, and that's where the daily practice of various techniques comes in...to get my fingers to do what my head wants it do.

I also like (and recommend) the Oscar Herrero accompaniment books (he has Solea and Alegrias currently) as that gave me a full culmination of how the various tricks are used to accompany singing. That book taught me that everything can be juxtaposed. This means you can add whatever cierre/remate or any small specific sections in a palo you deem appropriate when playing/accompanying, given that you have a whole library of such in your repertoire. So learning 'full pieces' from a JM doesn't help you understand that idea as well, in my opinion.

Also I'm learning that the left hand of a guitarist is used to accompany singers and the right hand accompanies the dancer. Dancers appreciate more rhythmic variations and singers appreciate correct pitch changes. They both are similar in that they share the same compas...and both are equally vital in creating a good 'aire' when placed on top of this compas. This is all probably already obvious, but it's good to think about or be reminded of.

It looks like you have a rigorous curriculum set in learning things. I'm interested in hearing how you progress. Can we get some videos soon?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2011 18:30:41

dararith

Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 4 2010
From: Oakland, CA

RE: A year of Flamenco study (in reply to dararith)

Oh, just looking at your study sheet and realized my playing initially was strikingly similar. I started off learning Solea and then to Tangos and then to Bulerias. Wasn't the greatest idea.

If I could go back and change my learning...I'd do the following core major palos (let me know what you think):

Tangos, Solea por Buleria, Alegria, Bulerias, Solea (you can probably throw in the other palos that aren't major in between...like petenera or tanguillo, etc)

Why the above order?

1) Tangos = 4 beat rhythm, usually in por medio (key of A). 4 beats has a consistent rhythm.

2) Solea por Buleria = 12 beat, but also in por medio. The tempo is roughly the same as Tangos. The chord sequences you learned in Tangos will be very similar (if not exactly the same) but the right hand will be doing various rhythm changes to keep up with the 12 beat compas instead of its 4 beat counterpart.

3) Alegrias = Can be key of E or key of C (Cantinas)..BUT, the tempo and right hand strumming is virtually the same as a Solea por bulerias. All the techniques you used can be applied, but you're just working out the left-hand in chord changes instead.

4) Bulerias = Learning this after the above will give you an idea of the relationship that palos have with each other and get you comfortable in internalizing the rhythm better. Bulerias will put that to test and give you an idea of how compas can be dynamic in twos and threes and sixes, further advancing your understanding of rhythm, but..it's in por medio, which you already know...and it'll be similar to Solea por Bulerias, but faster and less structured (more compas freedom).

5) Solea = A complete opposite of Bulerias in tempo! Waaaay slower, and the key this time is that of the Alegrias (generally in E) which you should already know. But because the rhythm is so slow in comparison...it'll really tests how well you internalized the compas. Imagine playing only beats 12 and 10 without a metronome and see if you can nail it at exactly the right beat...and I'm not talking about hitting it slightly before or after the beats...I'm talking DEAD-SMACK on beats 10 and 12. Now do this with Bulerias, which is easier for you? That'll show you where you may need help. I imagine for the advance players, you'd have a lot of space to fill in between each beat so you can really buff it up the 'solea feel' more. You do not have this space in Bulerias because the tempo is too fast.

I'm correcting some bad habits I formed from my first year of playing, from learning palos that were too advance for me and learning them in an incorrect way...so at the very minimum, I can share you my findings. In my opinion, the sequences of palos listed above gives a smooth transition in helping to understand the flamenco rhythm better which can make you a better player quickly. I'm not an excellent player or anything and still a beginner to the art, but just thought I'd give my 0.02.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2011 19:07:03

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: A year of Flamenco study (in reply to elgreco)

Nice avatar! Although I liked your old one too.

Welcome back, up for some settlers of catan?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2011 19:07:45

dararith

Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 4 2010
From: Oakland, CA

RE: A year of Flamenco study (in reply to sean65)

quote:

Since starting the original post I decided to leave all the books to one side and seek out one of the London teachers. I'm now studying with Francisco Antonio 'Tony' Clinton. He's a great player but more importantly a great teacher.

He made it clear we're not going to waste lesson time on Falseta. During the lessons we'll study flamenco structure in it's uncoloured form. At the moment we're looking at Solea and have nearly completed the basic ingredients. I guess when we're done we'll looking at ways of adding more colour/flavour etc to the basics and build on that.

It's a great no nonsense approach that covers the basics in such a way that I'd be able to play with cante by the time I've learned to play any particular palo. The right changes played in time and later, as I develop, I can get more creative with it i guess.

Sorry, I missed out on this post. Very good!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2011 19:24:35

elgreco

Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA

RE: A year of Flamenco study (in reply to chester)

You know it. I also brought some of my uncle's organic tsipouro so let's make plans.

:)
Dino

_____________________________

Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other?
Don Diego from San Fernando.
Don Francisco from San Jose.
Don Fernando from San Diego.
Don Jose from San Bernardino.
Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2011 23:16:00

elgreco

Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA

RE: A year of Flamenco study (in reply to dararith)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dararith

Also I'm learning that the left hand of a guitarist is used to accompany singers and the right hand accompanies the dancer. Dancers appreciate more rhythmic variations and singers appreciate correct pitch changes.

Exaaaactly. Very well put in words.

_____________________________

Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other?
Don Diego from San Fernando.
Don Francisco from San Jose.
Don Fernando from San Diego.
Don Jose from San Bernardino.
Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2011 0:06:09