Bass Guitar in Flamenco

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cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

Bass Guitar in Flamenco

Hi, I was wondering if we can discuss flamenco bass guitar. I am looking for resources or ideas. Tabs, Youtube videos, whatever. What to play when someone is playing compas?

This seems to be never discussed. Bass sounds cool with the flamenco guitar. What are your thoughts?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 3:17:09

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to cathulu)

I've got this book and CD:

http://www.esflamenco.com/product/producto.php?language=en&id=95463503

And a bass guitar of course!! Haven't done much though - I can accompany tangos basic compas, that's it!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 9:15:39

mecmachin

Posts: 171
Joined: Aug. 7 2010

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to cathulu)

I find this interesting as I was playing bass years ago. This allowed me to get into groups, because on guitar I wasn't good enough. Once inside, you find out to be very important as a link between sound and rythm section, still having a lot of liberties to make the difference.
I don't know if this is also valid for the flamenco world. Haven't touched a bass for years and don't know what is to be played. But the Diego Amador bass sounds too good. I really would like to know his effects setup.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 10:47:54

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to cathulu)

IMO a bass player would benefit from knowing the rhythms first and i also believe a bass player with good rhythm should be able to learn quite quickly..

Asking what you should and shouldn't play i think would depend on the tune and the skill level of the bass player.

Aside from trying to play the right notes at the right time, the important part IMO is that a group keeps listening to get better. Over time as the music becomes more refined, ears would hopefully work out what sounds good or not so good. Trying to define stylistically what a bass player or guitarist should or has to play only limits the creative process IMO.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 11:29:44

rombsix

Posts: 7813
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

What are your thoughts?

Are we talking farting bass, or bass bass?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 12:00:44

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

Hi, I was wondering if we can discuss flamenco bass guitar. I am looking for resources or ideas. Tabs, Youtube videos, whatever. What to play when someone is playing compas?

This seems to be never discussed.

OH romb beat me to it. I was gonna say, the vast majority of the public, and also afcionados world wide including THIS forum, seem to feel the electric fretless bass such as carlos benavent, is making a weird FARTING noise underneath otherwise beautiful flamenco guitar playing.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 14:17:34

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

the vast majority of the public, and also afcionados world wide including THIS forum, seem to feel the electric fretless bass such as carlos benavent, is making a weird FARTING noise underneath otherwise beautiful flamenco guitar playing.

It's not just a feeling; that's exactly what the bass is doing!

(A friend in Spain, well familiar with the flamenco world, is of the opinion that noone has done more damage to flamenco in recent years than Carles Benavent! Then there are others who think the opposite.)

Coincidentally, there was a little article in the paper yesterday about another bass player who has worked with flamencos, Antonio Ramos 'Maca':
No es un instrumento flamenco...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 15:17:30

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to Estevan)

Generally speaking, adding bass ruins flamenco for me, I tolerate it at best. I enjoyed Gerardo Nunez live with an acoustic double bass but then again I didn't miss it when seeing him without it.
I love bass in other situations (but never those smooth jazz players). Flamencos always seem to recruit these fusion-jazz players. Maybe another type of bass player could work better? The bass has many other sounds than that electric, fretless tone. I think it could be possible to have bass in flamenco in a way that I would enjoy.

This guy might add something, he gets some beautiful sounds, check out the oud effect starting at 1.48.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 15:52:30

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to orsonw)

Renaud Garcia Fons right?
Great bass player. But in this case he is the soloist and the flamenco guitar is the added element obviously.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 17:48:06

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to orsonw)

Yeah, that's the video i was thinking of too when I saw this topic. I don't get it why we don't see more double bass instead of electric in flamenco ensembles. Any thoughts on that?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 17:49:09

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to mrMagenta)

quote:

I don't get it why we don't see more double bass instead of electric in flamenco ensembles. Any thoughts on that?

Actually Gerardo Nuñez's bass player (when I saw the group in concert) played a modern upright bass (about cello size).
It was amplified, but had a really natural double-bass sound.

The guy seemed Classically trained, (to my ear anyway).

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 18:07:59

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to mrMagenta)

quote:

Yeah, that's the video i was thinking of too when I saw this topic. I don't get it why we don't see more double bass instead of electric in flamenco ensembles. Any thoughts on that?

A possible reason is that the double bass lacks attack, so it naturally kills the groove if you don't play very close to the body.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 18:15:32

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to Ailsa)

Thanks Ailsa, that was cool and exactly what I was thinking about. What do you think of the book, was it worth the money?

Has anyone come across a youtube video with some basic bass for flamenco? I will look also.

My son is learning Bass and I though it would be cool to play with him, like during Tangos compas. Will have to look into that.

Farting bass, hmmm, I guess you could call it that! It is a weird sound for sure but it does add a bit imho when tastefully done, like if iirc the bulerias Almoraima.

Wasn't Paco the first to include Bass in flamenco? I wounder what his idea was and why he wanted that tone.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 19:11:37

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

Wasn't Paco the first to include Bass in flamenco?

Of course...as well as everything else.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 19:18:46

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

Farting bass, hmmm, I guess you could call it that! It is a weird sound for sure but it does add a bit imho when tastefully done, like if iirc the bulerias Almoraima.

Well there you go, like so many things it's just a matter of taste.
I remember hearing Almoraima for the first time. I was being blown away by this amazing piece, man, and then suddenly I'm saying "Hey, what's that weird farting noise?

A bass?! WTF?!"

Really spoils a great piece.

quote:

Wasn't Paco the first to include Bass in flamenco?

Not to mention...bongos!
Ah well...Paco can do what he likes...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 19:27:33

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to Estevan)

quote:

Not to mention...bongos!

y cajón y synth y mouth organ y mini rainforests...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 19:35:45

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to bursche)

quote:

A possible reason is that the double bass lacks attack, so it naturally kills the groove if you don't play very close to the body.

The double bass is very capable of having driving rhythm in other forms of music. Charles Mingus and other hard bop Jazz bassists have serious swing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 19:43:03

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

synth y mouth organ

(quite apart from the cejilla, seventh chords, bare feet etc. - but we do not go there!

)

quote:

mini rainforests...

A charming touch, borrowed, of course, from the Palm Court Theatre Orchestra

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 19:43:10

sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to cathulu)

I think bass can really work quite well with Flamenco guitar.

Take a listen to Pepe Habichuela and Dave Holland (Double Bass) on their album Hands.

It's a great album and Dave has the musical maturity to sit in with pretty much any musician on the planet.

It's not an instrument that I'd want to hear all the time in Flamenco but occasionally it sounds pretty cool. I guess, like anything, it depends who's playing bass.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 19:53:21

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

What do you think of the book, was it worth the money?

Yes I think so. It's a start - it just covers 4 palos, including tanguillos which is a bit off the wall. I think some people might find the DVD more useful than the CD and book. Depends how you like learning I think.

I was learning bass guitar last year which really helped with my understanding of theory (though it's still a bit lacking....) Thought it might be nice to use bass when playing with other players sometimes, just for variety, but have never got round to trying.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2011 21:59:42

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to cathulu)

I dont like bass guitar in flamenco, until i heard it i thought i might though (i really enjoy a good bass player)

every time i watch paco de lucia with his bass player for example, my feeling is that the guy is incredible and plays great, but it doesnt suit the music in my ear

i think bass guitar makes flamenco guitar sound a bit like jazz

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2011 4:19:32

sean65

Posts: 414
Joined: Jan. 4 2010
From: London

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to marduk)

quote:

think bass guitar makes flamenco guitar sound a bit like jazz

You're right Marduk, but advanced flamenco musicians are no different from advanced musicians of any genre and the more advanced they become the more 'jazzy' they sound. Perhaps this is because they need to stretch out, musically speaking, and grab notes that create flavours of dissonance and resolve to get any musical satisfaction.

Or maybe it's because the only bass players good enough to sit in with flamenco guitarist are jazz players.

I like jazz so when I hear the Tomatito jamming with George Benson its always going to be interesting listening.

I have preferences though, I prefer either double bass or fretted electric. The frettless (farting) bass with 7 strings and active motherbuckers etc doesn't really appeal.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2011 6:37:03

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Bass Guitar in Flamenco (in reply to bursche)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bursche

A possible reason is that the double bass lacks attack, so it naturally kills the groove if you don't play very close to the body.

Well observed.
Because of that, I´d expect an acoustic bass guitar to serve best, or an electric one, only not tweaked and plugged as mushy as the specimen in the de Lucia combo.
Fruther, in order to accentuate it should be implemented scarcely; not in the continous and annoying way like with the guy Paco curiously engaged.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2011 12:45:09